Introduction:
Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them, but this is a rule that they occasionally adhere to (or not). Mayor Eric Haven has also cut people off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act), another rule that they occasionally adhere to (or not).
If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but your comments were cut short by the mayor, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.
Links to the video recording and the council packet can be found at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted between brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.
Agenda Item #1, Call to Order (Video time mark 0:00:03)
No formal call to order. Haven said there it is, 7:00, let’s all rise and open our meeting with the pledge to the flag.
Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:09):
Pledge said.
Haven said everyone can be seated. Welcome to the village council meeting.
Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:00:27):
Haven asked Karen [DeLorge, city clerk] to take the roll.
Eric Haven, Gary Casey, Bruce Fuller, Mark Lamphier, Sue Wylie.
Roll not called for the two absent council members, Laura Rodgers and Amanda Forte.
Agenda Item #4, Approval of Agenda (Video time mark 0:00:47):
Haven said he would entertain a motion to approve the agenda as it has been presented to them.
Motion Fuller; second Wylie.
Haven asked if there was any discussion.
No discussion.
Motion to approve the agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.
Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:01:05):
Haven said this is the time for public comment and asked if anyone in the public has any subject they’d like to address the council about that’s not on the agenda this evening.
Haven recognized Mike Gawronski and asked him to come up to the podium.
Mike Gawronski:
Mr. Gawronski provided his name and address. He said maybe this is premature because he’s there to talk about the ponds. If there’s discussion for anything other than the dam later then he can wait, but if not, he just has a question. Haven said it is on the agenda. Mr. Gawronski asked Haven to confirm that there will be public comment. Haven said yes, sure, they will entertain that. Mr. Gawronski said all right and stepped away from the podium. Haven thanked him for coming and he appreciated Mr. Gawronski’s interest.
Haven asked if there was any other public comment.
No additional public comment.
Agenda Item #6, FYI (Video time mark 0:01:54):
Haven said he didn’t have any announcements to make and asked if anyone on council had any announcements to make.
No comments from council.
Haven asked if anyone from the audience had any announcements.
No comments from the audience.
Agenda Item #7, City Manager Report (Video time mark 0:02:06; page 3/55 of the council packet):
Haven said that the city manager’s report is in the packet and there are four items.
Haven said there was an item about the Depot Road parking kiosk being nearly installed. Jonathan [Smith, city manager] hopes to get it installed by mid-February.
Depot Park rain garden bridge – thanks to the Optimists’ contribution and Steve Wyckoff ’s team of high school students. They were out there very much in the cold the other day working to build the bridge that’s out there. A few adjustments need to be made yet, but it’s getting close.
A water leak was identified by the Township relative to our drinking fountain outdoors.
Smith will not be attending the February 13th council meeting.
Haven asked Smith if he had anything he wanted to say to amend or add.
Smith said no, he did just run out of time today. There was another resolution he was hoping to bring to council, and he will be putting in the packet for the next meeting, even though he won’t be there. This is to set aside about $1,800 for refurbishing our downtown trash cans. He knows it sounds like “really, trash cans, we’re going to spend $1,800,” but these are heavy duty, iron trash cans that grace the downtown streets. He thinks they’ve been very nice-looking, heavy-duty steel cans, and it does not make sense to throw those away and buy new ones. Each one weighs probably one hundred pounds. They’re very heavy. That helps their longevity. No one is going to walk off with one. So, many of them are rusting, because they are quarter inch steel, many of them are rusting, and some of them have been hit by cars and dented, so what we are proposing for this $1,800, and this will be in the packet for next meeting, Smith just won’t be there. Haven agreed.
Smith said that what they are proposing is Jimi [Turner, DPW supervisor] is straightening them, he’s got a hydraulic (unintelligible due to background noise) that he’s using to straighten the cans, and he’s getting a prototype right now as we speak, getting it sandblasted and re-powder coated. They looked for three different bids on this. They found one that had a very attractive price of $125 apiece, you know, sandblasting this and then powder coat them. Haven said that’s great. Smith said so, that should last another ten years or fifteen years. They’re right downtown. They’re right on the street, so they’re very visible. Smith thinks it would improve the look of the downtown area. Haven asked if it was the same color, kind of bronze? Smith said it’s actually black. Haven said black, OK. Smith said he would have that on the agenda for the next meeting, but he won’t be there.
Wylie asked if Smith brought up this idea before because she feels like she’s heard it before. Smith said he has indeed. He brought it up two years ago. Wylie said OK. Smith said maybe it was longer than two years ago, and Wylie was right. Smith said that this is something that he’s wanted to do for a while because we have these beautiful planters downtown, yet right next to them, we have these rusted, dented trash cans. Smith said he calls them trash cans, but they’re really the structure that we put a liner inside. Wylie agreed. Smith said they are emptied every week by our trash service, but he’s been talking about this for a while, and he thinks it’s long overdue. Wylie said OK. Smith said with the winter months, it’s the perfect time to do it. They would take them away in batches of four, take four down, get them done, bring them back, and then take four others so we don’t leave the whole downtown trashcan-less. Smith said that’s the way they will do it. Wylie asked if Turner would take care of transporting them, and Smith said yes. Wylie said OK. Casey asked how many. Smith said fifteen. One of them was done so they just have fourteen left to go. Haven said that’s why they bought the good ones in the first place, so they could refurb them and not buy new. Smith agreed. Haven said that’s good. Smith said that’s all he had.
Haven asked if there were any questions for Smith.
Haven recognized someone in the audience named Rick [no last name given].
Rick said that he noticed on the authorization for the parking kiosk that it says up and running by mid-February. Does that mean charging by mid- to late February for people parking there? Smith said that would actually be a decision for council is when do you want to implement the start of it. We expect to have the unit installed by mid-February. The electrical lines were run today. Yesterday, or last Thursday, they did the underground boring to get the electricity over to our building, and today they were installing the conduit and whatnot. Smith said they hope to get the unit installed quickly. In the past, or he should say for the other lot, they had a grace period. We turned it on, got it running, but we weren’t ticketing anybody for about two weeks if council wants to do that again, just to kind of get used to it. They can see it sitting there, the signage will be up, but we won’t be enforcing, writing tickets for two weeks. Smith asked Rick if that’s what he was looking for. Rick said his question is, is the city, to the extent they want to do anything as far as helping businesses that are charged after 4:00 that are parking there, would their employee parking (unintelligible). Smith said that was not part of the resolution. The angle parking on Depot Road is still open and of course the paid lot across the street is available. Rick asked if enforcement still would start at 4:00. Smith said correct. Again, that was the proposal. If council wants to change anything, that’s their prerogative, but we initially proposed that it stay the exact same hours and fees as the Washington and Main lot, which is 4:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Monday through Friday, and then 11:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. on Saturday. Sunday is free. Haven said OK.
Haven asked if there are any other comments or questions for Smith.
No additional comments or questions.
Agenda Item #8, Sheriff Report for December 2022 (Video time mark 0:08:54; page 4/55 of the council packet):
Haven said the next item is the Oakland County Sheriff Department, Independence substation report. To sum this report up for those of you who don’t have it in front of you, in 2021, we had a total of, thus far, year to date of 1387, he thinks he’s saying that right – Smith agreed – (continuing), Haven asked is it year to date on the ‘21 number. Smith agreed. Haven said and then so far this year, no, the year’s over, so the sum total for 2022 then is 1961. So, a difference of 600, round number, so 2021 was very low usage because of COVID. 2022 is up by about 600 as far as usage issues are concerned and dollars taken in, that’s really the issue there.
Haven asked if there were any comments or questions. Sergeant Yole (spelling?), Haven asked if Sergeant Asher is the new – Smith said Sergeant Ashley. Haven said Ashley, who works for Lieutenant Richard Cummins at the substation, but he’s sometimes here. Haven doesn’t know if there’s anything significant unless council wants to ask a question or make a note that Smith can follow up on.
No questions or comments.
Agenda Item #9 – Motion: Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented (Video time mark 0:10:10):
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- 12-12-2022 Final Minutes (page 5/55 of the council packet)
- 01-09-2023 Draft Minutes (page 7/55 of the council packet)
- 01-23-2023 Treasurer’s Report (page 9/55 of the council packet)
- 01-18-2023 Revenue and Expenditure Report for the Period Ending 12-31-2022 (page 10/55)
- Carlisle/Wortman, December Invoices (page 19/55 of the council packet)
Haven said that the next item is the acceptance of the consent agenda. This is an accumulation of two meeting minutes, the draft minutes of two weeks ago, 01-09, and the final minutes from 12-12 in December, and the Treasurer’s report. We put these all together. If someone wants to take something out and isolate it, we can approve it without that item or if you want to vote on them as a complete group, you can do that.
Haven said he would entertain a motion to accept the consent agenda as it has been given to them.
Motion by Fuller; second Casey.
Haven asked if there was any discussion about the consent agenda.
No discussion.
Motion to accept the consent agenda as presented passed by unanimous voice vote.
Agenda Item #10, Old Business
Item 10a – Discussion: With Alan Higgins from S.H.P.O. [State Historic Preservation Office] Re: Certified Local Government Status (Video time mark 0:11:04):
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- Certified Local Government Program (page 21/55 of the council packet)
Haven said we have a discussion from Alan Higgins from the state preservation organization otherwise romantically known as SHPO [State Historic Preservation Office] about certified local government, an opportunity for us.
Haven asked a man if he was Alan [Higgins], and the man said yes. Haven said welcome, it’s nice to see you.
Alan Higgins:
[Higgins spoke while referring to the slide presentation found beginning at page 21 of the council packet.]
Higgins said he’s been talking with Smith about the certified local government program, which is a program that they offer though the State Historic Preservation Office. He didn’t know how familiar they were with the program (unintelligible crosstalk).
Higgins said he did just kind of put together sort of a high-level introduction to the program with some slides for them tonight. The program is really about historic preservation at the local level. That’s what it comes down to at the end of the day. It’s for communities that want to figure out how history and historic preservation can better fit into what they’re doing as it relates to community planning, economic development, and things like that.
They manage the program at the state level. Higgins brought a map in here, and later on he will show them some other communities across the state that have participated in it, but again, it’s really about that local desire. It’s a voluntary program that any community across the state can participate in should they have the desire to do so and to talk about history and preservation and get some incentives and tools for doing this.
Higgins said he always likes to start off with what is a certified local government. They call it a CLG in their office. It’s not a very descriptive name. It’s ultimately a federal program at the end of the day. It’s managed by the National Park Service, so their office, the State Historic Preservation Office, there’s a counterpart to them in every state across the country, that gets support from the National Park Service to help with historic preservation programming in their respective states. As part of that, they came up with the CLG program to pass down some of the partnership benefits that their office receives directly to local communities. So, it’s a way to connect through partnerships with the National Park Service, the State Historic Preservation Office, and local units of government that again have that desire to participate.
So, when we talk about becoming a certified local government, or becoming a CLG, it’s really just referring to a community that says hey, history is important to us. It doesn’t all of a sudden mean that everything you do is going to be with that in mind. Obviously, things change, but it’s an important component of what’s happening. So, it provides a network opportunity for those partnerships to get some tips and tools associated with it.
This is a federal program at the end of the day. So, there are about 2,000 communities across the country that participate in the CLG program. In Michigan, we currently have 41 communities that participate in the program, and again, he will show them a map here in a second. But every community that participates in the CLG program, they all meet the same five basic requirements that are set in place by the park service, and really the first two are the most critical, that the local community have in place a local historic district ordinance, which Clarkston already has, and that the community has appointed a historic district commission, again which Clarkston already has. So, kind of by right, you guys could apply to enter the program tomorrow if you wanted to because you already have the basic parameters in place for the program.
The other three requirements are sort of broad. The third one is what we refer to as maintaining a system for identification of important places in the community. Really, it’s the idea that over time, a community is going to go out and identify important places that contribute to their history. Again, it doesn’t mean that you’re necessarily going to preserve all of those, but you know, living in communities we all have in our head those places that are important to us, and so the idea is bring those places to paper as part of planning processes just because it makes it easier to engage and think through how they relate to other planning and development activities. So, that’s the third requirement for the program.
The fourth is basically that the historic preservation programs, so historic district commission activities, meet public participation standards, so open meetings act, FOIA [freedom of information act] requirements, all those good things that any community should be doing day-to-day anyway.
And number five is that they maintain those other four requirements to continue to participate in the program over time.
So, again, it’s a voluntary program. Any community can join if they meet those requirements. A community could say OK, well, we’ve done this for five years and we no longer wish to participate, and that’s fine too. At the end of the day, it really comes down to what the community wants to get out of the program, but it’s really, to maintain (unintelligible) participation, it’s keeping the ordinance in place, keeping the historic district commission in place at the end of the day.
Haven said that they are going to hear about that in their next agenda item, the performance of this that Mr. Meloche [Historic District Commission Chair] is going to present to them.
Haven said his number three, maintain a system for the survey of historic resources, is Higgins familiar with our historic district study committee? Higgins said yes. Haven asked if they qualify, does that fulfill that requirement? Higgins said yes, so that’s what it’s really about. It’s about, over time, identifying those places that are important. Some communities do a lot every year, and some communities do a little every five years. There’s no right or wrong to it. It’s just having that mechanism in place that allows you to go out, and so having that study committee and the work that they do certainly contributes to that, yes. Haven said Nancy Moon and her team, yes, thank you. Higgins said absolutely, and they’ve worked with Moon on several projects, some other of his colleagues in the office, so, yes, he’s definitely familiar with the work that it’s been doing. Haven thanked Higgins.
Higgins said again, it’s really about that partnership. He’s not going to go through the slide in a lot of detail, but it’s just a nice visual representation of what the CLG program is about. At the end of the day, really that linkage between the National Park Service, his office at the state, and the local unit of government, again with the Park Service kind of setting (unintelligible) program framework, us as the intermediary that passes on the benefits and so on, and the local government carrying out their respective activities.
You know, an important part of it is that the things that are in place with your ordinance, with the historic district commission, council’s role, and the study committee’s report, none of that changes as a result of this program. All that (unintelligible due to background noise) the same, everything is still a local decision at the end of the day. Sometimes communities will have questions on that, but all of that stays as you guys have and always done this process.
The other thing that Higgins likes to tell communities is at the end of the day, again, it’s about you all, it’s about the local community. So, it’s a federal program, again. There are certain requirements, those five things that every community has to meet. You know, it’s not a program where we come in and say hey, here’s what you guys have to be doing as it relates to preservation. Really, it’s about you guys coming to us and saying here are the things we’d like to accomplish in our community, how can you at the state help us get to where we want to be. So, it’s kind of that (unintelligible) approach. We’re happy to do as much as you all want us to be involved in different things, but we also don’t take a heavy-handed approach. Some communities like to take advantage of all of the benefits of the program. They want everything we can throw at them whether it’s technical assistance, training, funding. Some of them are like we’ve got everything figured out, we just want to use your grant funding, and that’s fine too. Really the program is designed to be reflexive to what the local community needs at the end of the day.
Higgins said here’s what he just went over, just a map of the communities that currently participate in their program just for reference, who your other counterparts are across the state that may participate in this. The list is up to date. He needs to update his map. Saginaw was the most recent community that has currently come on. So, they currently have 41 communities in the State of Michigan that participate in this program. Again, all those that meet those same five basic parameters that we just talked about. Our communities range from the City of Detroit to the Village of Calumet in the U.P., so we’ve got communities of all different sizes, capacities for resources at the end of the day. Every community uses the program a little bit differently, and that’s OK. It’s just about those local conversations, figuring out where you want to go, how you want to make use of the program. It’s just another tool to have in your kind of coterie of assets as you’re thinking through things locally, and he would say too, should you guys come into the program, one of the things that they do like to do is connect up their communities within kind of the same localities, because there’s a lot to learn from different counterparts and the things that they may have gone through. You all, especially the historic district commission, they’re the ones that are doing the meat of the work at the day to day. They provide assistance, but having their own expertise and sharing that among communities is really one of the benefits of the CLG program, to draw those connections together.
Higgins said he’s not going to go through this list entirely. He just wants to give kind of a summary of the different things that are available to a CLG. So, they as a state agency, they of course help any community that comes to them. They don’t tell a community no, but for those communities that participate in the CLG program, they kind of go the extra mile for them as it relates to historic preservation. So, whereas they provide general assistance, advice to any community, for those communities that do participate in this program, they provide them with specialized assistance. That carries through in training, education, outreach, on the ground support, grant funding opportunities, which he will talk about tonight, but really there’s a whole list of things that become available, sort of on demand. Again, it’s about what the community wants to make of it. You can have them come out every month and talk about different things, some of them may be every six months or a year. But this is his job, all day, every day, helping those 41 communities currently and traveling the state (unintelligible) and helping them with their historic preservation activities.
Higgins said he would put up some quick examples of the way they can help. They do help communities again with identifying important places in the communities. They organize those communities to become study communities on the books. They’re doing that work. They can come out and assist with those processes, they can walk around those areas, they can do some legwork with them, facilitate those things because they sometimes have communities who don’t have the capacities or resources to dedicate time (unintelligible) you sometimes need to those things, so they can come out and help with those processes. Their historic architects can also come out and do building consultations, so if there are historic buildings in the community that the property owners just don’t know what to do with them, sometimes having that outside expertise can be helpful just to kind of get them (unintelligible) the properties, so their historical architects do make themselves available for that.
And the same thing for archeological resources. Should a community ever have archeological needs, their archeologists can come out and assist with those questions, talk about what things mean or don’t mean at the end of the day. That’s one of those areas, you know, for better or worse, until you’re in a situation having to do with an archeological resource, you don’t think through what those questions may be or how they may impact (unintelligible), so, again, it’s just another assistance that they offer to CLGs.
And then just broadly training and education. This is where they get their main requests. CLGs get access to specialized training and education, whether that’s coming out and doing training for the historic district commission, doing public workshops on historic preservation and what that means for the typical property owner, kind of running the gambit of those outreach and educational opportunities. They partner with other organizations from across the country, across the state when they do trainings as well. They do quarterly get-togethers. They were doing them virtually but they’re slowly moving back to doing them in person. Again, just facilitating that dialogue and really that local know-how capacity to deal with issues that come up. That training and education component is always there for those communities as they see fit or how they desire to take advantage of it.
The big reason most communities get into the CLG program is quite honestly for the grant funding opportunity. So, in Michigan, the only grant funding specifically for historic preservation through their office is accessed through the CLG program. So, communities that don’t participate in the CLG program do not have access to grant funding through their office. So that is, again, why most communities get into the program, to get access to that, even if they don’t have a project that they immediately want to seek funding for, it’s going to have it on the books so in two years, three years, whatever, you’re already in the program and can take advantage of that. So, they do have a grant funding round each year that they make available to their communities. That money, that partnership, kind of really comes down through the park service to their office and then they pass it down to local communities. It’s not tax dollars at the end of the day, it’s actually the profits that the federal government receives from offshore oil and gas leases. You know, they get that question a lot about where does the money come from, but that’s what it is. It’s the federal government giving the profits from one nonrenewable resource to another nonrenewable resource in the venue of historic properties.
So, they have an application call every year when those grant funds are available to the municipalities. Those grant funds can also be passed through to nonprofits and public entities within those municipalities, so Clarkston could submit an application on the part of a nonprofit or public entity. It doesn’t have to be a history-focused nonprofit or public entity. They have some of course that do partner with historical societies and things like that, but they also have some that participate with school boards, or land banks, or other entities in their communities that may intersect with historic preservation in some way, even if it isn’t their primary cause. So, those grant money opportunities can be passed down to them. They also have a lot of communities that use it in coordination with their local DDA [Downtown Development Authority] or the Mainstreet program that they have in their community because there’s a lot of overlap there as well.
So, they do have two categories of grant funding that they offer. One of those is for what they call their planning, documentation, and education projects and those are kind of the foundational planning pieces in communities, things like a survey of historic resources, designation of places in the national register of historic places, which then in turn makes them eligible for tax incentives or other grant funding opportunities, design guidelines, doing hands-on workshops for things like masonry repair, window repair in the communities, revitalization plans for corridors, really, there’s a whole lot of creativity that’s allowed for in that kind of framework that’s planning and documentation projects. And then they also have funding available for predevelopment work, and specific works, and mortar work on historical places as well. And for each of those right now, their maximum award is generally for reference $100,000 per cycle, so you could come in for a grant cycle and ask for up to $100,000. You could come in the next grant cycle and again ask for up to $100,000. That’s the general framework that they have.
Haven asked what their grant cycle is, what’s the fiscal. Higgins said their grant cycle typically begins around October 1st and closes February 1st so they’re actually getting ready to close out their current grant cycle. So, their next one would be on October 1st of 2023, so assuming that they get something that you guys as a community would be interested in, and if you get into the program in the spring/summer what have you, you would be well placed for that next grant cycle, to take advantage of that.
Higgins said he’d talked about this already, but again, applications come from the community. Nonprofits, and public entities can benefit from them as well. The other thing that he wanted to mention is that while match requirements vary year on year for grants, they currently have no match requirement for a grant, so it’s 100% of that authorized grant amount, whatever that may be at the end of the day, which is kind of an unusual thing. Not to say it’s always going to stay like that. They’ve had the last five cycles where they’ve not had a match requirement. His goal is always to keep it that way because sometimes it’s hard to find grants that don’t have that match requirement attached to it.
Higgins said they’ve talked through some of this, and he really wanted to have this included in everyone’s packet. He’s not going to talk about it in detail, but it’s just some of the examples of things that communities (unintelligible) for those grants. If you all come into the program and you ever want to talk about specific projects, to see him to talk about specific projects, he’s always happy to bat around ideas. Their approach is if there’s something that’s valuable to you all, they want to figure out how to help you fund it. So, again, they try to allow as much flexibility as they can to do things.
Haven said so as a format for a presentation, if we were getting ready for October, we could begin building our package right now according to your guidelines. Higgins said yes, absolutely. They have a standard grant application form. It’s four pages, roughly speaking, and that doesn’t change much from year to year. So yes, you don’t have to wait until that next grant cycle to start talking to them about a project. You can already get those things ready so you could cement them on Day 1. Haven said right. Higgins said again, they’re happy to help with those processes. They do preliminary review of grant applications before the final deadline, which a lot of granting agencies won’t do. Again, they try to make it as accessible as possible because for historic preservation, there aren’t a lot of funding options out there, so they want to try to make it as user-friendly as possible. Haven said sure.
Higgins said this is just an example of how three of their communities have used the grants over time to do different things. It’s always (unintelligible) to look at examples from other communities. They, again, they don’t have any limit on how many grants a community can apply for over time. They have some communities that come in year after year and ask for things, some of them just come in and apply for multiple grants in a single cycle, it just depends on what they may have going on in that community. So, some communities have used them pretty substantially over the years to do planning-related activities as well as to promote preservation of specific places, doing the bricks and mortar work, so he just wanted to have this in everyone’s packet with examples for you.
Just to touch on slightly, besides their grant-funding opportunities, CLG communities do have access to grants strictly from the National Park Service as well. So, these are four examples of the grants that they offer. He can talk to any level of detail. He just wanted to make you aware of the fact that beyond their yearly funding opportunity, park service, because this is a federal program, because it’s designed to facilitate that partnership between their office and local government, they do open up certain pots of money specifically for communities that participate in the CLG program. Those are all over the map in terms of funding. Some of them have $50,000, some of them have funding limits of $750,000, so there’s a lot of variety in opportunity that comes through there as well. One of the benefits of the CLG network that Higgins mentioned is they always share information regarding the availability of grants to their CLGs so that they’re made aware of these opportunities because sometimes, they can otherwise slip by. Of course, if there’s money on the table, you always want to take advantage of that, so they try to, again, to permit access to information related to these things.
Haven asked if these were just examples. Higgins said yes. They have, and it varies every year just depending on congressional appropriations, they only have 7-8 different grant programs that they operate. Some of them are focused on certain themes, if you will. So, sometimes, they are focused on rural communities, sometimes they’re focused on underrepresented communities, different heritages, but they usually give him grant programs for what park services has available in a given cycle.
Higgins said he quickly wanted to touch on how become a CLG should it be something that you guys decide to move forward with. And then you guys already have a few basic things in place, that local historic district ordinance and the historic district commission. So, if you guys decide to move forward, you could apply tomorrow to the program. They do accept applications to the program at any time. It’s a basic five-page application. In general, what they collect information on is what are you doing (unintelligible) historic resources and preservation in your community, and where do you want to be in the next five years, ten years. It’s not something where they tie you in to specific commitments. They just want to know where your head is at as it relates to what you are trying to do, so that way when you come and ask them for technical assistance or grant funding, they can talk through this in a more informed way. So that’s really what the application, you know, there’s basic stuff as well. When are your HDC meetings, you know, that sort of thing as well, but it’s really about just getting a feel for where you are with your local preservation activities.
So, they accept those applications at any time. There’s no deadline for them. They just come into Higgins at his office and he will review them, and if there are questions and things like that, they’ll talk through those. It’s a pretty simple process. There’s no cost associated with this program. It’s a free program, again, it’s voluntary at the end of the day. There’s very little administrative burden that goes along with the program. Besides the initial application to get into the program, really the only administrative requirement is that every year, their communities do submit a brief annual report to their office. That is kind of counter to the information they collect in the application, so what did you do that year that relates to historical preservation, did you have education opportunities, how many reviews did your historic district commission do in a given year, things like that. Most communities tell us that it takes about two hours to prepare that report on an annual basis, so it’s pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things. And that’s really the only administrative burden that is associated with specific entry into this program.
Haven asked Higgins to define free. In other words, you get into the program as long as you qualify with all these things, without a dues system or application – (interrupting Haven), Higgins said there’s no application fee, there’ll be no money exchanged whatsoever. Haven said no annual. Higgins said no, the only time money comes into play is through the grant, should you be awarded a grant award, but otherwise just for basic participation, there’s no cost whatsoever to the municipality, and that’s actually, again, this being a park service program, that’s something that would never change. It will always be free, no payment program for any community that meets the requirements and wants to participate. Haven said great.
(Casey asked an unintelligible question.) Higgins said that his office kind of serves as the intermediary between park services and the local communities that participate. So, the CLG program is a federal program. That said, so, their funding, when they give funding out to CLGs through grants, for example, through this program, they have to give, so every year, they get funding through park service for their basic operations. Part of that they re-grant out to local communities. They also get part of their money through the Michigan Economic Development Corporation. That’s where their agency is housed, so they work alongside their community development team on some things. So, there’s a little bit of that overlap that comes into play, but mostly federal, at the end of the day, for the program structure that’s come into place.
Haven asked Smith if the historical society is considered, or would we be considered together in that the historical society and the HDC would be considered – (interrupting Haven), Higgins said the way this program operates is it would be the local unit of government would apply, Clarkston as that local unit would apply, and then the benefits thereof carry for the entire municipal jurisdiction. Haven said OK. Higgins said so any nonprofit, or any public entity within that local jurisdiction, could apply for grant funds through Clarkston, and then too for projects and special assistance, that can happen anywhere within the community. It’s not limited to just getting assistance for those areas that are already designated as historic districts, which is a huge benefit, is that you can look at these areas outside that and get insight, assistance with grant funding. So, there’s no limitation other than really that municipal boundary at the end of the day. Haven said OK, thank you.
Higgins said this is kind of in a previous slide, just in a more kind of flow chart format and generally shows how it operates. So, again, everything generally works through them in the state. So, if you apply, it comes to him, he works with the local community. Because it is a federal program and the park service has to sign off on the communities’ participation at the end of the day, broadly speaking, it serves as a rubber stamp. If they sign off it, park services assumes that they looked at the local community to make sure that they meet the requirements. The process can be as quick as thirty days or so; it can be as long as a year or more. Really, it just depends on how quickly the community wants to work with it. Particularly for those communities who have a historic district ordinance and their historic district commission on the books, it’s a pretty quick process. (Unintelligible) 30-45 days as long as you’ve already got the basic parameters taken care of.
Higgins thought that was the last slide in this quick and very high-level review. He hoped that gave them some good familiarity with the department. If there are specific questions about things, he’s certainly happy to talk through them. (Unintelligible) and other things they can talk about, and he knows you guys are busy, so he just wanted to give you the case for the overall purpose of the program and some of its primary benefits that come along with it, but he’d certainly be happy to answer questions if they have any.
Wylie said that Higgins mentioned that specialized SHPO support included building consultations. Would they have any support for future uses for vacant lots? Higgins said potentially. Typically, when they, those kinds of consultations are geared toward like wide-open properties in the community, sometimes like those properties that have just been vacant for a long time that communities just don’t know what to do with, and they need an outside perspective to come and facilitate some of the dialogue. You know, they can of course talk about, you know, if you need advice or assistance on what appropriate infill for a vacant lot could look like, things like that. They can certainly have those conversations, you know, they have provided advice and assistance for those. Of course, at the end of the day if it’s within a local district, the HDC – Wylie said it is – (continuing) Higgins said would have final oversight over that but yes, they can participate and have done so in other communities to help them, particularly communities where maybe they only deal with infill questions every two or three years. It can be a struggle, and you’ve got turnover and things like that. But yes, that is certainly something that they get from a lot of HDCs is that practical advice on how to do things. They do also through the CLG program produce a bulletin series on different preservation topics to provide additional guidance. So, how do you deal with infill construction in historic districts where there (unintelligible) in historic districts, signage in historic districts, and so on. Again, just for that local capacity and kind of knowledge base building. Wylie thanked Higgins.
Haven asked if anyone on council had any more questions for Higgins.
No questions.
Haven asked if anyone in the audience had questions. Now is the time. We’ve got him right here.
No questions.
Haven said it sounds like a wonderful program. We’ve heard about it for a long time, but this is the first formal presentation he’s seen and it’s very nice. And the entry seems like a low threshold entry, for sure. Higgins said it is, and they sometimes wonder in their office, they have 41 communities that participate, and he thinks they have 83 communities across the state that have local historic district ordinances, broadly speaking, so they’re about half, so they sometimes wonder well why hasn’t a community ever gone for this before, and you know, there’s lots of factors that go into that at the end of the day, but again, the main thing is to make it accessible and reflexive to what the community is after. You know, should you guys decide, you know, that you want to do this, or you have more questions about it, please consider him a resource. Haven said sure. Higgins said like the SHPO office, he’s more than happy to talk through things, answer questions as they may come up. Haven said OK.
Fuller asked if the grant opportunities just apply to public-owned property and so forth, because there are some homes in the historic district, they’re expensive to maintain at times, and sometimes people have hardships, you know, maintaining them. Is that something that there’s grants available to help people with lower incomes that have these older homes? Higgins said sure. So, with their grant funding, so there’s kind of two different pots of funding availability. So, that kind of planning side, when they were talking about revitalization (unintelligible) and design guidelines, facade studies, things like that, those can encompass any property at the end of the day, kind of those foundational pieces that queue up the ability to kind of take the next step. When it comes to the bricks and mortar work, so that physical investment in place, those do have to be publicly owned at the end of the day. That is a requirement of the federal program. So, again, they would have to be owned by the municipality, a nonprofit, or public entity. (Unintelligible) they have seen some communities use grant funding opportunities for are things like providing money for the municipality or the DDA specifically in some instances is to hire, for example, like a preservation architect to do design work, kind of pro bono, they’re subsidizing it through a grant, but pro bono for people that may not have the ability to go out and do that on their own. So, whereas it gets a little tricky in giving the physical money for the bricks and mortar, there’s some things that they can do to facilitate those processes and kind of queue up their ability to do things that they may not otherwise be able to do. Does that make sense? Fuller said yes.
Higgins said it’s the most common question that they get, honestly, is can you directly give to private investment. They do have some grant programs where they have been able to do that. For example, they recently had a program for lakeshore communities where they were able to go out and give money to private business owners and things like that through that, so they do have those opportunities from time to time, and CLG participation is quite often a key to getting access to those programs as well, but as it relates to CLG specific grants, if you’re talking about physical improvement, they can do some of that predevelopment work, but the physical work would have to be on what is publicly owned at the time of the grant on those properties. Fuller said OK, thanks.
Haven asked if anyone else had any questions.
No questions.
Haven thanked Higgins for coming. Higgins thanked Haven for having him. Haven said he thought they would be in touch for sure.
Item 10b – Discussion: HDC [Historic District Commission] Exhibits (Video time mark 0:42:40):
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- Clarkston Historic District Commission 3Q2022 Activities (page 38/55 of the council packet)
Haven said next on the agenda is a very closely related subject, our HDC exhibits and Jim [Meloche, HDC chair] has been very kind in coming on a quarterly basis to give us a report.
Jim Meloche, HDC Chair:
Meloche said that’s exactly why he’s here tonight. Haven said how did he know that. Meloche said they had two exhibits, right? Single pages, two pages. Haven said yes.
Meloche said let’s get this out of the way first. You’ve seen this before (holding up a printed page with a grid), and the last dates on it are July, and that means that we didn’t have any activity in August. So, to do a quarterly about the remainder of the year, unless you have any questions on the last two quarters.
(Holding up the page with the photos), Meloche said that this is a new format he’s suggesting, and it was requested by somebody on the council. He can’t remember who it was. Wouldn’t it be great if you could have a picture so we can understand what we’re looking at. Haven said great. Meloche said that what he’s looking at is probably the most interesting projects he’s seen in four years for different reasons.
You recognize that birthing house at the top, right, 18 North Holcomb? Well, imagine our surprise when we got an application from Renewal by Anderson. Haven said oh boy. Meloche said with no mention of the homeowner, the name of the salesperson, no contact information for the homeowners, and we of course eventually ferreted that out and we put them on our September agenda. And they came, and their window sales and engineering team came with them from Kalamazoo to meet with us, and what they presented to us was a proposal that they had made to the homeowner to remove eleven potentially historic windows and replace them with vinyl windows in a different style even than what had been there.
So, the first thing we pointed out to them is that our mantra is to repair before you replace, try to do that on all historic structures. And, of course, the two salespeople were adamant that windows like this were installed as late as the 1950s. What do you mean, windows like this? You’re not even proposing a match. Well, we have one that looks like that, so we can put windows that look just like the ones that we’re going to tear out. And all of this time the homeowner is looking at his calendar because winter’s coming. They wanted to get the job done because their windows had been leaking and they want to get that taken care of rather quickly.
So, of course, we heard their case and we offered to help them identify if the windows were historic or not. And contact Jackie Hoyst (spelling?), our consultant architect, and she had an opinion of her own, which we realize has value, and so we got a report from her, and she also helped us identify two preservation glaziers within easy reach of Clarkston. Easy. One was in Kalamazoo and the other was in Bay City. But that’s the way that works. You don’t find experts like that in your backyard.
So, reports came in from the two of them, and meanwhile, we did a site visit or two. We were there twice and did a little research in the village too, and we learned that between twelve and fifteen, depending on how accurate you exactly want to duplicate those windows, featured windows that look like the ones at 18 North Holcomb. We describe windows, like one over one means one pane of glass over a lower sash of glass, and when they start breaking them up with (unintelligible) it can be an eight over four, or a six over two, or whatever. And these were one over one, but the top sash was (unintelligible) and the bottom sash is (unintelligible). So, now that I’ve told you that, next time you’re driving through town on North Holcomb or North Main, see how many of those you can find, and there are over a dozen of them all in houses that were built between the late 1800s and 1920. Another thing that was a clue to everybody was you couldn’t see where there had been sashways. He said he would describe what sashways are. They’re counterbalances that were built for large windows. Generally speaking, they were a piece of lead on a piece of cotton cord that went up and over a pulley and came back down the run that the sash goes up and down in and attaches to the window, so it makes the window relatively weightless because it’s counterbalanced. That’s a sign of something that was constructed in the early 1900s. No evidence in this house, but it could have been a very cleverly patched job, and the former owner claims that she had cut those cords so that went into the record. Fuller said birthing house. Meloche said in the birthing house. (Fuller said something unintelligible.) Meloche said kind of ironic, huh. Haven said cut the cords.
Meloche said the other thing they found one, not of the historic windows, but some that they weren’t going to change, had an alternative to ropes and counterweights, a spring-loaded reel with a strap coming down that channel. That is also, if it was put in at any time near those other windows, that’s also an identifier of 1914, 1917 (unintelligible). So, the two reports came in from the glaziers, and they said, “did you look at the pins.” Meloche said he said yes, he saw those things. They had spring-loaded pins on either side of the windows. He said that was very common in the 1905-1914 period and you didn’t have weights. You lift the window, and you won’t worry about it, or you make one of your kids do it, and the spring-loaded pin would prop the window at a certain height, and all the windows had those pins.
So, we had a second meeting and a third meeting. The first one was in September, the second one was in October, and the third one was in November. And in the November meeting, the homeowner came in, he proudly told us that he had fired Renewal by Anderson, that he had the names and phone numbers of the two rehabilitation glaziers, and he was going to have them come in, get prices from them, and that’s what they were going to do. And we also pointed out back in September that if you repair the windows instead of replace them, you don’t have to open up the wall. They put plastic outside of all the windows that are going to be rehabilitated. You can work on them from inside the house. So, their fear about inclement weather getting in the way of the window fix went away. No problem.
So, the next step in talking with the preservation glaziers now is they’re going to make a deal with one of them. One of them, I’m very proud of his professional ethics, said I’m going to give you this report but I’m not going to do the work because it may sound like I’m trying to talk you into something that I’m good at doing. But he said I’ll find you one. The guy in Kalamazoo had another way of doing it. Whenever he comes anywhere near here to repair windows, he finds somebody that’s got a good reputation and he trains them on historic preservation and the local guy does it. Haven said wow.
So, the homeowners are happy. They got their money back, and they’re going to repair the windows. So, that’s pretty good news to us. Haven said that is a cool story. Meloche said they did the right thing.
(Continuing), Meloche said item number two, 5 and 9 South Main, one of those fun projects we’ve been working on, and it’s because we have a passionate applicant, and we have a talented architect. And they got it. They brought us a proposal, you all saw it, and what they presented is not exactly what they ended up with, but we think it’s better and so do they now. We engaged our preservation architect for a critique, but we took it and presented the portions of it that we felt were appropriate for that applicant, and they did every single thing we asked them, and Meloche thinks that what the council all eventually saw made you all happy with the project, right? Haven said very much. Meloche said OK, good.
Meloche said and then there was a mystery. Robert (no last name given, but likely Robert Esshaki, the owner of 5 and 9 South Main) said does anybody know if when they tore down the mural and had to take the (unintelligible) off the brick if they found damaged brick, and did they replace it with other brick. None of us on the committee knew anything about that. Meloche lived through it and saw it come down and repaired and all that, but we did a little archaeology in that room right there (gesturing toward the door), and mostly, when we went into that storeroom, into what are called the street files, you all know what that is. There are four, six, or eight drawers in there full of folders of every property in the village by street. So, I went to 18 North Holcomb [5 and 9 North Main?]. Nothing in the first folder. What Meloche found, and he went right to Smith’s office with it, it was an entire package of when water got behind the flashings, got down behind the (unintelligible), and destroyed some of the bricks, and there was a proposal in there for repair that had to be done. We don’t know if it was done, but it brought the architect and the applicant a lot closer to a solution for that if they find it (unintelligible). Meloche asked Smith if Robert ever came to look at that stuff. Smith said no. Meloche said so, they are taking our word for it, OK. Meloche said it was something for us, because it lasted two to four months, and took (unintelligible) calls, we give them something (unintelligible), they seemed happy with it, they came back to us, we liked it, done.
These are not typical. Someone said nothing is.
Meloche said the third one is the little house on the second page, 9 Miller. The issue here is that five houses were built around 1924-25 by the same builder, and they were worker houses. They were small. They did what they could to make it look different, but they’re all the same size. And this one was the one of the five that looked most like it did in 1925. It has some of the first stucco (unintelligible) around here, which it still has. Of course, we won’t let the homeowner put aluminum siding over it, but she didn’t want aluminum siding. We worked with her. Go look at it today. They’ve done a few things like flower boxes in the front, which are (unintelligible) as we see it, so we don’t mind that. She’s asked about putting brackets and cornices on the house, and we pointed out that this is not a Preston house (?); it’s a bungalow, it’s a worker house. It’s not a high-end architecture. And bless her heart, we’ve worked with her on everything and what you see today is not (unintelligible) the original house in our opinion. And (unintelligible) this time was the fence in the yard, and she showed us something that we liked, so we approved it. And she wanted a privacy fence around the hot tub, and so Meloche asked if she had a permit for the hot tub, like we always do, and she said “a permit”? She needed an electrical permit for it, which she got, he thinks. And then she wanted to replace the front walk, and every time she came up with something new, she’d bring in builders that she found on the internet. This is what I want to do. And she was real close on all of them, but we’ve been working with this person for three years on about eight different renovations she done, and the learning curve has improved dramatically. And now she wants to build a garage and Meloche is anxious to see what kind of a garage she wants to build. But it’s kind of fun, and she’s one of Meloche’s neighbors too, so he goes by this house every day and sees what’s going on.
But these are the only cases they’ve had since July, and they all came at once. Haven said wow. Meloche said but they drag on. September, October, November. And they had no cases in January because of the weather. This isn’t a time when people are thinking about doing this.
Meloche asked if there were any questions for him.
Fuller said on the other page, the one that Meloche didn’t go over, the first one, are all of those resolved? Like some friends of ours with a two-car garage, has that been built? All the work. Meloche said that anything that has to do with (unintelligible) is approved but maybe not done. Fuller said not done. Meloche asked which one Fuller had in mind. Fuller said the Knapps, he’s just curious because he knows them, oh, they’re replacing the fencing, someone else has the garage. Meloche agreed and said he’s not sure if that’s done yet. It’s not major. It’s a replacement for something that’s already there. Fuller said OK. Meloche said just because they approve it doesn’t mean it’s getting built. Some of the stuff has to go through the building department.
Fuller said so at 130 North Main, no, at 2 South Main, it’s a business. Meloche asked which one. Fuller said the one that’s 630, 2 South Main, Coudret, repair – (interrupting Fuller), Meloche said it turned out that was something they really should not be reviewing. It was painting awnings, so they handed it off to the Planning Commission. They regulate signage. Fuller said OK.
Haven asked Meloche if he would just take a minute and relative to his work, and the outcomes of his work, explain the legend down here so that people understand the work that the Historic District Commission does is help keep our village authentic, so it goes property to property. As Meloche has explained in detail, it’s a whole lot of attentive, loving relationship that goes on with these properties because people on the commission really do care and try to find homeowners, they help them find solutions, which keep the facades on their property keeping with the historic, you know, Clarkston, so that’s your work. But those outcomes there, Haven thinks it might be helpful if people, like certificate of appropriateness, that’s an interesting language, would Meloche just explain that. Meloche said well, that is what people apply for. If they don’t get a certificate of appropriateness, it could get as bad as a certificate of denial which means they can’t do anything, and then the others are somewhere in between.
Meloche said that there is one thing that they are working on changing now. It’s going to mean some time here in city hall, and it came from one of his reviews here (gesturing). Somebody asked does everybody who gets a memorandum of administrative approval [MOAA] end up getting a certificate of appropriateness. That’s a really good question. We invented the MOAA when Meloche became chair, because they found a lot of cases where administrative approval was given without any records. So, we created a memo, but when Meloche heard that comment, that question, he wanted to cut down the list, make it a little simpler, so they are going to replace memorandum of administrative approval with a certificate of appropriateness, and both are going to be in the binder. They’ll staple them together. Let’s see, he’s trying to remember, they did it on three properties already. One of them was the work on Main, the Chetros (spelling?). Smith said no. They put on a new roof, they had to repair some pillars, so we used the administrative approval process to approve that. Rob Hauxwell and Meloche went there, Michael Moon and Meloche went there, they saw the damage, they saw what the contractor was going to do to mitigate it, Chet [Pardee] had pictures of some shingles so we got the brand, we got the colors, and all that. Administrative approval helps applicants, so they don’t have to wait 30 or 60 days. Haven said it expedites the process. Meloche said they only do it when it’s not small scale, small to medium scale where they can report it adequately without having to hear it. So, you’re not going to see MOAA on anything anymore. You’ll notice it isn’t here.
Haven said but the appropriateness idea is in keeping with the historic context, basically, right, that’s what appropriate means. (Meloche nodded.) Haven said it’s an interesting term. Meloche said but the document that you’re getting in the certificate of appropriateness, a memorandum of administrative approval until now, was simply documentation. So, we’re going to merge that with a certificate of appropriateness. Haven thanked Meloche. And the wording on the new way of doing which Chet [Pardee?] got was he got a certificate of appropriateness and there’s a paragraph at the bottom that the procedure used was administrative approval, and here’s how we did it.
Haven said that facility, he doesn’t know when it was built, it doesn’t fall within a fifty-year historic, does it fall within the district? Is it in the district? Meloche asked Haven if he was talking about the certificate. Haven said he was advising or in that case you were consulting, in that case for appropriateness. Chet’s condo, is it in the district? Haven didn’t think it was in the district. Meloche said he got a certificate of appropriateness. That means go ahead and do it and it is compatible with the architecture around it. Notice to proceed is a little different in that you don’t have to prove historicity. Haven agreed. Meloche said but, you are OK to go because you are not dwarfing the historic stuff next to you. Haven said right. Meloche said you are not putting up something that’s going to make it hard to appreciate the historic stuff on the other side, like that. But those are all, those all come to us from Washington. Meloche said notices, he understands that, except that there’s a notice of denial in the background of the birthing house. We have to solve a problem in 90 days, so when 85 days gets here, and we work with the homeowner, the applicant, on this, we tell them we are going to give them a notice of denial that’s an administrative document, isn’t binding, and he has to reup, he has to file another application, and that’s the same process right now. As soon as he picks one of these contractors and figures out how many of the 11 windows he can get repaired, he’ll file again, and we’re back in business. Haven said so it’s an expediting device, brings things to closure, but (unintelligible). Meloche said well, the ordinance says that if a decision isn’t rendered in 60 days, then it’s an implied approval, so we can’t let that happen. Haven agreed. Meloche said we have to cut it off at 55 days. Smith said 60, not 90, you said 90 the first time. Meloche said it’s 60, yes, 55, instead of 60.
Haven asked if anyone had any questions for Meloche. He knows this is a detailed discussion in some respects, but it’s certainly worth it to put a stamp of authenticity on our village, and he’s the man who makes sure they deal with all the cases on the committee.
No questions.
Meloche asked if that was it. Haven said OK, we’ll see you next quarter. Meloche thanked Haven. Haven thanked Meloche.
Item 10c – Motion: Mill Pond Dam Grant Application (Video time mark 1:04:38):
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- Motion – Mill Pond Dam Grant Application (page 41/55 of the council packet)
- 01-23-2023 Letter from City Council to the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes and Energy, Water Resources Division, Subject: Dam Risk Mitigation Grant Application, Letter of Support (page 42/55 of the council packet)
- Dam Risk Reduction Grant Program, 2023 Application Form (page 43/55 of the council packet)
Haven said the next item on the agenda is one that he thinks many people are interested in. This is a motion for Mill Pond grant application. Haven said he wanted to read that motion just to sort of lay the groundwork here and then we can have some discussion about it because it gives a little bit of background.
Haven read the motion. While reading, Haven noted that there are 66 residents around the pond. He also noted that the referenced application is in the packet.
Haven said that there is a very well-written document that goes with this which really, he was pleased to see how it underscores our historic community and presents it very well to EGLE [Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes and Energy].
Haven said he would like to introduce Ryan Woloszyk [spelling taking from the Clerk’s draft minutes], he knew he was going to butcher that and said sorry to Woloszyk. Haven said he really appreciated Woloszyk. We’ve been working with Oakland County Water Resource Commission. He’s a very competent man and been very helpful to us. We wanted him to come tonight to sort of, would you like to explain and then answer any questions people have just to kind of bring us up to speed on where we are. Haven knows he was out on the pier today.
Ryan Woloszyk:
Woloszyk said he was out there with the EGLE staff and taking a look at some of the water levels and try to come up with a middle ground.
Woloszyk said yes, we’re applying for a grant to help WRC [Water Resources Commission] take ownership of that dam. They currently manage 32 dams throughout the county in the program, and that’s done through Part 307 [Inland] Lake Levels of the Act [Act 451]. The grant’s intention is to do the basic first study along with the design of a new structure to then present that to the residents. That’s how they get involved, is they present to the residents, and the residents have to petition them for that dam.
The grant itself is pretty straightforward. They opened it up this year to a lot more applicants which allowed us to apply for it for the Clarkston Mill Pond. The wording in it before kind of limited it to higher hazard dams than we have. High hazard but not a middling size dam. So, with that opening up, they were contacted by the city and have been providing support to apply for said grant. Kind of where they are at with it, so he will open it up for questions from the council. That’s really what he’s here for.
Haven said he would kick it off. He read something in here that he would like Woloszyk to help them understand because it’s been a long-term issue and we are looking at resolution, and like all Americans, we would love to do it quickly, but it may not happen that quickly, but the sentence here says that WRC indicated they would be willing to assume ownership of a new dam structure if that could be designed and constructed. So, the question is what is that point of transaction which, what has to be done before you would assume ownership and then we would move forward. Would the whole project have to be constructed or is it an agreement to construct based upon designs and so on. At what point would you assume ownership of it. Woloszyk said traditionally, the whole thing does have to be constructed for them to take ownership. Haven said alright. Woloszyk said in this case, should we get a special assessment district, they would entertain the idea of taking a limited ownership in terms of maintaining that level with the existing structure. So that puts their staff in charge of maintaining the level in that interim when we are finalizing the design, because the design in the grant is not a complete design, it’s a 80% design for them to basically go to the residents and say hey, here’s what this is going to cost, we’re very confident in that cost, and we know that we are going to be able to do it. Woloszyk doesn’t want to spend that kind of money to do a 100% design, get all his permits, and the residents say no, that’s not something we’re interested in. So that second grant would be covering that final design and construction. Haven said that’s after this grant. Woloszyk said after this grant, should we apply for it again. Haven said OK. Woloszyk said so that 80% design gets us to yes, we have something we have confidence in, the state is happy with the direction we’re going with it, we’re going to meet all their permit requirements, and we can give a solid price to the residents when they go and sign that petition that this is where we are looking in terms of cost, Woloszyk can’t say it’s 100% because everyone here knows that things keep going up in cost.
Casey asked where the current dam is exactly. Is it under a road or under (unintelligible). Woloszyk said so, it’s that pier that sticks out into the lake is where is the current dam. Casey said OK. Woloszyk said in front of that there is a (unintelligible) valve, and then that goes underneath the road, underneath the building, and into the Mill race.
Fuller said somewhere he was reading today where that dam is a height of 30 feet. Woloszyk said technically, yes. Fuller said so, you’re talking about from that where, the pier, under the road, dropping down into the stream – Woloszyk said the Mill race – (continuing), Fuller said so that whole thing constitutes that dam. Woloszyk said yes, so all of Washington Street. Yes, all of Washington Street is considered part of the dyke for the dam. So, your control starts here (gesturing) and then Washington Street essentially is that dyke, which it’s that thinner part of Washington Street, and then there’s a secondary structure that goes to Parke Lake that’s also part of it, so both of those would – (interrupting Woloszyk), Fuller asked if he’s talking about the waterfall, where the mill used to be. Woloszyk said yes. Casey asked if that would be affected also. Woloszyk said yes, it would also fall under their jurisdiction on that. They wouldn’t take ownership of half of the dam to maintain a lake level. How legal lake levels work is they go to court, they set a lake level that basically is hey, this is where the height is going to be. There’s some fluctuation to them now just because of where current law is, they kind of put a range, but a target goal is essentially the middle of that range, and then they have to maintain that. So, if Woloszyk only has one of the two structures, he can’t maintain the level with just one of them. He needs both of them within his jurisdiction to be able to properly move water as they should.
Casey said the structure that controls the flow of water from the Mill Pond to Parke Lake is fixed. Woloszyk agreed. Casey wanted to know what would happen to that. Woloszyk said it depends on what the lake level study comes back with. He’s hoping to utilize it as it is as having two structures is definitely going to be more expensive than having one. If anything, the lake level may, when the study comes back, be lower. There may be some minor work involved to get that thing so that it is at that new lake level in terms of bringing it down to that level, but that’s up to that study that we’re applying for to kind of make that decision as to where the lake levels should be. That’s based on basements in proximity to the lake, any septic fields, but he doesn’t think there are around here, but essentially you’re looking at the entire health of the lake along with any infrastructure around it to pick up a safe level for that lake to be maintained at that, that maintains the value of the homes around there and it also has a benefit to the public as a whole.
Casey asked if Woloszyk was saying that the lake level of Parke Lake is likely to be lower. Woloszyk said no. It should have minimal effect on Parke Lake. Casey said OK. Fuller said that makes sense, that lake stays the same whether water is coming over the waterfall or not. Casey said (unintelligible) streams. Woloszyk said yes. If anything, based on EGLE’s previous comments, they’re going to want water to go in both directions and it’s going to be a boon to Parke Lake to see more of that water coming into it as part of the Clinton. Haven said two directions. Woloszyk said yes. Haven said through the dam in some way and over the spillway. Woloszyk said yes, through the dam and through the spillway, and that’s what they’ve indicated in the past.
Wylie asked if Woloszyk could go back a little bit; he was talking about dam and dyke. She doesn’t know – (interrupting Wylie), Woloszyk said the dyke is just the earthen embankment, and the dam is typically where the control structure is. So, Washington Street is in the right of way, but it is technically the dyke that holds back that lake. So, it’s just the earthen embankment that stops that lake from coming straight through. Wylie said OK. Woloszyk said and then the control structure portion is where we actually make adjustments. Wylie said that’s the dam. Woloszyk said it is considered the dam, yes. Wylie thanked Woloszyk.
Casey said so if it turns out that the dam needs to be replaced, do we have the old dam somehow, or do you make a new one next door? Woloszyk said as part of this, they’re going to look at both of those options because with the age of it and where they kind of need to move that line to, he’s not going to take ownership of a utility under a building, that’s for sure. They’re going to want to move it off to essentially that property and then come back in and reconnect to the Mill race for them to take ownership. If it is possible to rehab that and reroute that pipe around and it’s cheaper than building a new structure, that’s definitely something they would entertain. If the structure is not in as good of shape, then there would probably be some kind of abandonment procedure for that and there may be some conversations for the historic committee as to what you guys want to do.
Haven said Woloszyk’s document alludes to sort of completion if we are awarded the grant, completion of that process, that 90 (unintelligible) and so on so like November of this year. Woloszyk said yes. Haven said and assuming we go ahead and get funding for the balance of that construction that maybe takes place in the next year or so, so we’re looking at sort of a two-year cycle for completion of the proposal. Woloszyk said for completion of this proposal, yes. Know that lake level actual proceedings, depending on if there are any challenges, can take some time. Haven said can be extensive, yes. Woloszyk said that can definitely extend it, possibly. The last one they took on was Bush Lake, that process started in 2004, they completed the dam in 2014. That gives you an idea. Haven said of what could go wrong. Woloszyk said it could go wrong, and it could go very fast, that’s why he doesn’t want to say yes – Haven no, said he gets it – (continuing), this isn’t a guarantee timeline because there’s courts and there’s a lot of public input to get into there too.
Haven asked Woloszyk to explain then the interim potential solution of a weir given the situation that we have right now, so perhaps we could sustain a certain lake level, maybe not ideal, a certain lake level in the interim until we can get something like this underway. Woloszyk said so, EGLE was out here today to provide recommendations. Woloszyk’s service staff assisted them in getting some elevations on both the weir and the existing dam structure. Haven asked Woloszyk to define a weir. Woloszyk said that’s the other, the structure that goes to Parke Lake, that’s a fixed weir. It’s just a fixed point. Water flows over it. That’s it. Haven said so Woloszyk is not looking at the one, the weir on the pier. Woloszyk said they are looking at both. Haven said OK. Woloszyk said he was looking at both of them.
Haven said replacement (unintelligible). If you could just explain that. What do replacement (unintelligible) do. Woloszyk said there’s a capability to add a weir to the existing structure to essentially let them open the gate valve up and just water flows over that weir and goes out. So, turning it into a “I’ve got to go crank a wheel” to change the level to the water comes up, more water goes over, and that’s it. They don’t have to do anything with it. With that though there’s going to be a requirement of basically having it lower than it would traditionally be because you’re not going to be able to get as much water out as quickly. So, that’s kind of the middle ground of “hey, we might be able to make this work in a you don’t have to operate it fashion,” there’s a weir built into there, but it’s probably going to be a little bit lower than what it traditionally has been. Haven asked if Woloszyk could see from his work today that it might be higher than what it is now though, even though lower than what it could be. Is it between or do we even know. Casey asked if they were talking about the Mill Pond. Woloszyk said the Mill Pond. Haven said the Mill Pond lake level, yes. Woloszyk said the lake level itself. Woloszyk said he’s not really going to speak to that until he gets something back – (interrupting Woloszyk), Casey said he’s not talking about Parke Lake. Haven and Woloszyk said no. Woloszyk said nothing to do with that. Haven said Casey lives there, so he’s concerned. Woloszyk said it has nothing to do with Parke Lake whatsoever. (To Haven), Woloszyk said he’s not going to speak to that until he kind of gets something back from EGLE. Haven said we were all hoping to figure out kind of where it’s going to be. Woloszyk said yes, but he doesn’t know where that level is going to be, but yes, once EGLE’s gotten something back to Woloszyk, they’ll have some conversations.
Haven wanted to know if they did all the fact-finding they needed today to make that determination what the next steps should be. Woloszyk thought they’ve pretty much done all that. He’s got to get over there and take a GoPro video of manhole-size structures just to see what we see in there, but that’s about it. Haven said OK. Woloszyk thought he [EGLE] has everything he needs to do his calculations. Haven said OK, all right.
Haven called on a man in the audience who didn’t identify himself. The man asked who are the residents that would have to approve paying for some of this. Woloszyk said that would basically the same residents that are in the lake improvement board. Haven said around the Mill Pond. (The unidentified man asked an unintelligible question due to crosstalk.) Woloszyk said the assessment district for the lake level would basically be the exact same as the lake now. The unidentified man said OK, so it’s not the whole village. Woloszyk said no. Haven said that’s correct. Woloszyk said so, how the lake level act works is it’s do you benefit from this directly yourself, so he doesn’t think there are any deeded properties that have access to deeds. It’s pretty much everyone who lives at the lake is what the assessment district would be. Haven said he asked about that. Woloszyk said it doesn’t mean that in the past communities haven’t put an at-large portion to the construction to assist residents, and that’s something that if council or Independence would like to do, that could happen. That’s up to council and Independence.
Haven recognized Meloche for a question. Meloche said he’s not wearing his historic district cap, he’s wearing his homeowner cap. If, after you do all the engineering you decide to go on a path that’s going to lower Upper Mill’s level to the south Mill Pond, the bigger Mill Pond, would that have a disastrous effect on the one on the other side of the street. Woloszyk said most definitely, because it’s much more shallow up there. Meloche said yes. Woloszyk said he doesn’t see it getting much lower necessarily than where it is. Meloche said OK. Woloszyk said he just put that as an example when we were talking about the other, the weir. He thinks that you have a historic, essentially water mark on there that he’s pretty sure they are going to be right around where that water mark is on the pier. Meloche asked if you have to settle on the lower mean level for the bigger Mill Pond, is it possible to do something like a standpipe on the north pond to maintain a certain level there. Woloszyk said it is possible to do that. He can tell you it’s going to be cost prohibitive probably to do that, if they were to do that, but it definitely is possible. Woloszyk thinks where the level will be, will be that traditional water mark level unless something egregious comes up on the review of the environmental or houses and basement levels and whatnot. Meloche said alright, so you’re really taking a holistic approach, both Mill Ponds at once. Woloszyk said yes, both ponds at once, we’re taking a holistic approach to it.
Casey asked if there will be any dredging involved. Woloszyk said no, there will not be any dredging involved. So, the lake level is literally, only maintains the dam and that level of the lake. Any dredging operations would fall back to that lake improvement board. That’s what those are set up to do.
Haven recognized an unidentified man. The unidentified man said the question they get about the upper Mill Pond and the lower there, we’re talking about a grant being partially funded by the lake association which includes every house that’s around the upper Mill Pond, so he thinks that Meloche and he can attest that there’s certainly an interest to make sure that the level of the upper Mill Pond is not neglected. Secondly, he was riparian representative before Frank and lived here forever, so the idea of how things are funded. He understands the SAD [special assessment district] that’s all the people directly on the pond, but he would think it prudent to take a look at a graduated assessment district, because the value of those ponds extends beyond those landowners. You know, every (unintelligible) on the website shows the Mill Ponds when people think of Clarkston. So, he’s not trying to stick it to anybody, but he just thinks it’s worthwhile looking at. Woloszyk said so, the law that they operate on, does not allow that. So, when they make a lake level, a legal lake level, it only allows them to assess people that have some type of deeded access to said property. Haven said fair enough. Woloszyk said that’s how that law is written, so the city does have one share as you have deeded access through your parking lot, for example. But that’s all. They have one share.
The unidentified man said that Woloszyk had also mentioned that a standpipe would be cost prohibitive. Everything’s relative, so how would Woloszyk, in his experience, rate the cost of a standpipe against dredging the upper Mill Pond. Woloszyk said the standpipe is going to be significantly cheaper as you’re dredging right now, you guys investigated, heavy metals. Haven agreed. Woloszyk said it’s designing another structure within the water basin. That’s the cost prohibitive part of it. One of them is already going to be quite expensive for a small district to do. Hopefully, that’s not going to come up, but when they go through the actual process, there’s going to be a lot of public outreach, public hearings on it, you’ll be hearing from Woloszyk at the next lake improvement board meeting on the 8th – Haven said the 8th of February at the township hall – (continuing), Woloszyk said on the 8th, they’ll be there and hopefully when they get where they’re going to be receiving the grant, and they’ll have more conversations at that point in time with the homeowners.
An unidentified man said he would save (unintelligible) one question, last question, understanding that the (unintelligible) of the bridge material (unintelligible) will a big driver of the cost, what about the possibility of basically increasing the shoreline but making (unintelligible) fully the material that’s now spread over the surface of the Mill Pond back along the shoreline so that the upper Mill Pond is longer but deeper. Woloszyk said that’s definitely more an EGLE question than him. He doesn’t have an answer to that. Dredging permits at this point are very hard to come by. He just got one for his lake and it was a four-and-a-half-year process. The unidentified man said we’ve been dealing with this for decades. Woloszyk agreed. In terms of doing something like that, it’s going to be an EGLE question. It’s still going to be impacting the bottomlands, you’re still going to need the same dredging permit, you just wouldn’t have the cost of disposal. The unidentified man said OK. They’re pretty impacted by now by drying out. Woloszyk said they are pretty impacted now, yes.
Meloche asked Woloszyk if he was aware that homeowners on the south Mill Pond come up to the water’s edge and homeowners on the north Mill Pond go out to the middle. Woloszyk said no. It doesn’t really make any difference in the assessment. Meloche said he wasn’t thinking in terms of the assessment. He was thinking about how people on the south Mill Pond are going to have more yard, right? They own it to the edge of the water. Woloszyk said more yard. Meloche said if the water line is going to be different. Woloszyk said oh, yeah, it would be a little bit of a gap. It’s not owned by anybody, so it doesn’t really, it’s not going to make that big of a difference. There’s no parcel there. The water is not the parcel. Meloche said he thought Adler/Roth owned down to the water. Woloszyk said no, there’s no parcel there. If you look at Oakland County (unintelligible), there’s not a parcel there. There’s just a water. So, the upper pond is a result of 1960s and 70s, you have to divide every land, all land must be divided. Later on, with development, water started becoming a non-parcel. Just like right of way is a non-parcel. Meloche said that was interesting.
An unidentified man said that the plats that he’s seen show a distinct egress line along the edge of the lower Mill Pond. Will that egress line then move in if the level drops, will the property plats actually increase to meet the edge of the water? Woloszyk said that would be a (unintelligible). He doesn’t know if they would do that. Possibly? Planning maybe on the city side could make a change like that should the water level be lowered, but he’s not sure who would do that exactly. Like he said, he doesn’t see it changing much from where it traditionally is. That’s a good argument for the state, saying hey, it’s been like this, it’s been maintained like this, there have been no issues like this, and that’s the first spot they’re going to go to, is starting based there right at that water mark line and then work their way backwards through the rest of everything else and the hydraulics work with that. Are we going to be able to get the flows up with that, is there any other issue we see with this, that’s kind of going to be the starting point, essentially is that water mark line. The unidentified man said OK.
Haven recognized a man named Eric. (Unintelligible) would be willing to take over the dam once all this money is spent on it. Is that what’s going to happen after all this money is spent on it (unintelligible)? Woloszyk said this grant right here? Eric said yes. Woloszyk said that’s the intention of this grant, is to go, to get the one piece that they truly need to go to court to set a legal lake level, for them to take ownership, yes. The unidentified man said are we just going to get rid, or sell it, or just deed it over to you, or how is that going to happen? Woloszyk said that is a conversation for them to have as to how that’s going to work in terms of them passing ownership because they have, the other parcel with the weir is under their ownership, and then in concept, they’ve agreed to their reroute around through the property, just in concept, to (unintelligible). So, they’ve been part of the conversation to get to where we are.
Haven said but more has to happen after this grant is received and activated and completed, right, before you take ownership. Woloszyk said yes. Haven said it sounded like you were saying at the end of this process you take ownership, he doesn’t think, so you need construction, right, completed before you’ll take ownership. Woloszyk said before they’ll take full ownership, yes. Haven said partial maybe, but not full. Woloszyk said they are talking with them partial, of Woloszyk’s maintenance staff taking over the duties of making adjustments to the level to bring it closer to what that legal level would be.
An unidentified man said but there’s not an agreement in place for you guys – (interrupting the man), Woloszyk said no, not as of right now. (Continuing), the unidentified man said to take ownership of it. If it’s completed, you want to take ownership of it. Woloszyk said once it’s completed, because at that point they have (unintelligible), they have everything in place. Once, not this grant, but once all the rest of it is completed, they will take ownership of it, period. The unidentified man said OK. Woloszyk said yes, so at that point yes, they will have 100% ownership of it. They’ll want to own where the weir is at, they’re going to have their (unintelligible) over their stuff. They’ll either have a new dam potentially in the water, or rehab and utilize the existing one, depending on where they are cost-wise between the two.
Fuller said if you go with the weir idea, which sounds really appealing in terms of cost and everything, but will that level that will be set be high enough for the water to continue to run through the park here. Haven said the Mill race. Woloszyk asked in the midterm or in the final he guesses is the question. In the interim, like the weir idea of doing something now to bring that water level up a little bit. Fuller said yes. Woloszyk said water will pretty much be primarily going through the Mill race. Fuller said OK, and then could that possibly dry up, that creek through there. Woloszyk said through the Mill race. Fuller said yes. Woloszyk said no, there’s where water is primarily dumping now. Haven said that’s the first. Woloszyk said because it’s not going to even be able to make it up to the Parke Lake weir with the interim idea (unintelligible). Fuller said he sees. Woloszyk said because the Parke Lake weir is up almost all the way he thinks to 997 if he’s not mistaken. The level is going to be significantly lower than the Parke Lake level, for sure, the weir on Parke Lake, or to Parke Lake. Fuller said yes, thank you.
Haven asked if there were any other questions. The council has the floor. There’s sort of a head nod to the resolution to approve $5,000 in city expenditures to be presented in a future council meeting, but council is now being asked to approve the attached letter of support that will be submitted with the grant application. So, we’re just lending our support to the application process at this point. We have to approve the $5,000 later and where it comes from, Smith has some ideas about that, but that’s all we need to do tonight, OK. Smith said the grant is due on Friday. Haven agreed. It’s pending. Smith said that’s why this is in front of you tonight; the financials will be brought to a future council meeting.
Haven said and again, it’s a motion. It’s not a resolution. We’re not spending money yet, so he will entertain a motion to accept this.
Wylie said that she would make a motion to approve the attached letter in support from city council; second Fuller.
Haven asked if there was any discussion.
Chet Pardee identified himself through the remote speaker and was recognized by Haven. Pardee said good evening. Haven said good evening. Pardee said his question relates to a point that Jim [Meloche] was making and the current design for repaving West Miller, essentially the route between upper and lower includes something that’s called an equalizer pipe that will run under the road. Pardee just wanted to be sure that Woloszyk was aware of that, and Pardee thinks that’s really why Meloche is raising the question about the standpipe, because if there’s an equalizer pipe, then essentially that drives upper and lower to the same level. Haven said that’s in place now, but it’s collapsed, isn’t it, to a point, OK, so there’s a restriction. Pardee said no. An unidentified person in the audience said there’s damage. Haven said damage. Pardee said no, two issues. Two issues. Haven said yes, its existence and the condition of it. Pardee said no, well, OK, but when we’re talking about replacing the concrete that’s there, he believes, with a pipe that was going to be 24 inches in diameter, Meloche? Meloche thinks it’s 30. Pardee said 30 inches that would go under the road. It’s going to replace the concrete structure. Pardee said he believes – (interrupting Pardee), Haven said Meloche’s answer to this – (continuing) Pardee said he believes HRC [Hubbell, Roth & Clark, the city’s contract engineers] they’re the ones who created the design, but the equalizer pipe sends some message as it relates to upper and lower and what we’re talking about doing. [Meloche unsuccessfully tried to interject.] (Continuing), Pardee said so, at some point we’ll repair the west end of Miller Road. Meloche said he can’t talk [due to the remote connection]. Haven said to Pardee that Meloche will answer the question.
Meloche said let me add something. Pardee is referring to a proposal for paving west Miller Street. Haven agreed. Meloche said that included an equalizer tube because this giant concrete thing with two tubes through is starting to fail. Now we made a proposal, the county was involved, the state was involved, but they made notice in there that what is in there has to be removed or replaced, and that’s what the equalizer tube was. Haven said at the time of fixing Miller, or a separate event. Meloche said it was strictly a proposal. Smith said strictly a proposal saying the culvert needs some attention. Meloche said right. (Continuing), Smith said and how that would get addressed is still very much up in the air. Meloche said right. (Continuing), Smith said if it could be done at all. We really are going to be constrained in our financial resources. Meloche said right. (Continuing), Smith said so, it may not be possible. It’s just that if we would want to replace the culvert, that would be the obvious time to look at the ability to look at the visibility, just to do a 90-degree turn and some kind of standpipe. We haven’t talked to WRC about this or EGLE or anybody, it’s just HRC looking at this and saying the possibility is there, but we have to do more research on it. To Pardee, Haven said OK, that’s a subsequent issue, or a separate issue. Pardee said it’s not separate from his end. Haven said OK, that’s fine. Pardee said that the grant that we applied for included that element in the design, the grant that council approved. Haven said not this grant. Pardee said OK, thank you. Haven said we are limiting this to this grant.
Haven said so, we have a motion and second to approve this, the direction here, of submitting the letter for the application. Haven said without any further discussion, he’s going to ask for a roll call because we’ve got it in that form, and he thinks that’s the best way to do that and he asked DeLorge to take the roll.
Casey, Haven, Fuller, Lamphier, and Wylie voted yes. Haven said OK, the motion carries, passes.
Agenda Item #11, New Business (Video time mark 1:36:28):
Item 11a – Motion: Finance Committee Appointments (Video time mark):
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- Motion – Finance Committee Appointments (page 43/55 of the council packet)
- 01-18-2023 Email from Mark Lamphier to Eric Haven, Bruce Fuller, and Jonathan Smith, Subject: Finance Committee Letter (page 54/55 of the council packet)
- Undated Letter from Bruce Fuller to Eric Haven, Declaration of Interest in Serving on the Finance Planning Committee (page 55/55 of the council packet)
Haven said so, that’s the last item on our agenda and he will entertain a motion – (interrupting Haven), Tom Ryan (city attorney) said no, you’ve got the finance committee. Haven apologized. Fuller said he has a new responsibility. Haven said he does, that’s right, he’s not going to let him off the hook, he’s sorry. He was too eager.
Woloszyk left the podium. Smith and Haven thanked Woloszyk.
Haven said they have one more item on the agenda, and that is, he’ll read this one too. (Haven read the motion.)
Haven said he will make the motion to appoint these members to the finance committee, and he’s looking for a second. Second Casey.
Haven asked if there was any discussion about this.
No discussion.
Haven asked for a voice vote and then said they would take the roll since it was listed on the motion.
Fuller, Casey, Lamphier, Wylie, and Haven voted yes. Fuller asked if he was enthusiastic enough. Haven said he didn’t know if they had to recuse themselves or not but, nevertheless. Casey said if they did, they wouldn’t have a quorum. Haven said if they did, he thinks Ryan would let them know. Ryan said right. Haven said we wouldn’t have a quorum; we couldn’t make it happen.
Haven said all right, the motion carries.
Agenda Item #12, Adjourn (Video time mark 1:38:12):
Haven said now, the moment you’ve been waiting for.
Wylie said she would make a motion to adjourn; second Casey.
Haven asked if there was any discussion.
No discussion.
Motion to adjourn by unanimous voice vote.
Haven said they are adjourned and thanked everyone for coming.
Resources:
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- Link to video recording:
http://216.11.46.126/CablecastPublicSite/show/4008?site=1 - 01-23-2023 City Council packet
- Link to video recording: