Category: Mill Pond Dam

Introduction:

Links to the video recording and the council packet are at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted in brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.

Agenda Item #1, Call to Order

The meeting wasn’t formally called to order. Eric Haven wished everyone a good evening, said it was 7:00, and asked everyone to rise and say the Pledge of Allegiance.

Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:03):

Pledge said. Haven said everyone could be seated.

Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:00:22):

Haven asked Karen DeLorge [city clerk] to please take the roll.

Sue Wylie, Amanda Forte, Laura Rodgers, Mark Lamphier, Bruce Fuller, Gary Casey, and Eric Haven were present.

Haven said they were all present and accounted for.

Agenda Item #4, Approval of Agenda (Video time mark 0:00:45):

Haven said he would entertain a motion to approve the agenda, and he’d like to suggest an amendment to this. Joette Kunse is here from the garden club [Clarkston Farm and Garden Club] and she has a proposal to make to them. So, Haven would like to kind of get her in so she can leave if she’d like to. So, he’s going to suggest they put that as sort of 5A under public comment.

Haven asked if anyone else had any amendment or adjustment they’d like to make to the agenda as it’s been presented to them.

Wylie said she wanted to say again, she doesn’t think public comments is the right place. If they’re voting on this, if this is a motion, it should be under new business. Wylie realizes Kunse would have to stay longer. But it’s not a public – (crosstalk between Haven and Wylie). Haven said it was a courtesy, but he didn’t know if that meant the placement was significant.

Casey wanted to know what the issue was. Wylie said it was a (unintelligible) sheet about the daffodils. Casey said OK.

Haven said they made it a motion because they think they have to make a decision, right? That’s the idea. Haven asked Tom Ryan [city attorney] if there was anything in Roberts Rules or anywhere that says they have to wait until new business. Ryan said it’s a discretion of the chair, right? You could move it up, you could make it up to, you know, like 11A-1 or something. Take that first as a motion under New Business. Haven said all right; they’ll do it there then.

Ryan said then he would just suggest, he sent an email to Jonathan Smith [city manager] and said they really can’t adopt on 11C. They can’t adopt that ordinance. They have to have two readings. So, it would just be a first reading, and the ordinance will be adopted next meeting should they want to adopt the ordinance. Haven said he would make a note of it. Ryan said stormwater regulations. Haven said so, that’s an adjustment. Ryan said it would just be a first reading. Haven agreed. Ryan said they are not adopting, just a first reading, please. Thank you. Haven there’s your explanation here. Right.

Haven said they would move Kunse to 11. Haven asked if there were any other adjustments.

No additional comments.

Haven began to ask for a voice vote on those adjustments. Wylie and Fuller said he didn’t have a motion, so she would make a motion. Second Fuller.

Haven said he had a motion and second and asked for discussion.

No discussion.

Motion to approve the agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.

Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:02:56):

[Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them, but this is a rule that they occasionally adhere to (or not). Mayor Eric Haven has also cut people off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act), another rule that they occasionally adhere to (or not).

If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but your comments were cut short by the mayor, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.]

Haven read the rules for public comment and asked if anyone had a public comment.

No comments.

Haven asked if he should read the public comment that came into them without the party being present. He can do that. Smith said it’s Haven’s discretion. Haven agreed. He gets it. He just wants to be fair.

Chet Pardee:

Haven said this is from Chet Pardee, provided Pardee’s address, and read from a sheet of paper.

Pardee said good evening and thanked Smith for his replacement of the stop sign and speed limit sign on West Miller Road. He also thanked Smith for restoring paid parking at the Washington and Main lot kiosk.

In the last meeting, the mayor challenged whether Pardee knew for sure that Smith was not working on improved security for Depot Park. Pardee responded that monies had been budgeted for the 2022-23 and for the 2023-24 [budget] and had not been spent. Pardee was surmising that the effort Smith had put into developing the ten pages for last meeting’s expanded lighting resolution had likely kept him from working on improved security. Pardee prefers dark skies and sees increased lighting as increasing the park hours where shenanigans can occur. Pardee prefers “nature” over “carnival.”

As Pardee has said previously, he is concerned that Smith is not able to spend the hours required to develop capital project resolutions for council approval as included in the approved budget. In recent years, unspent dollars were carried over to the next year making it appear that capital expense dollars are readily available, when in fact the approved capital projects are not being done because of insufficient Smith time.

The approved budget for capital projects is Smith’s to do list. The finance committee – the mayor, Fuller, Lamphier, Smith, and Greg Coté [city treasurer]) – have developed the items and council has approved them. The items are documented in the first year of the Capital Improvement Plan.

The mayor appears to include his “preferences” on council meeting agendas when Smith is on vacation: September 2022 Depot Lot Paid Parking and September 2023 Depot Park Expanded Lighting.

Not satisfied with the council’s decision to not spend city funds on Depot Park lighting, the mayor has arranged Julie Meredith facilitated public meetings 10/6 and 10/13. Attendance should be recorded, and the mayor should have arranged ITV [Independence Television] filming for broad public availability. Pardee thanked Smith for insisting on an all-Clarkston resident survey.

Haven’s priorities presented first in July and again in August to the planning commission are attached. No increased taxes are required as he appears to depend on philanthropy and the Optimists for funding. But what about Smith’s time? Seems like the Friends of Depot Park are using Smith as their project manager at the City of the Village of Clarkston’s taxpayer expense.

[Pardee included two attachments to his comments to city council. They are attached here and here.]

Haven said so, that’s a public comment. Haven asked if anyone else wanted to address the council on anything that’s not on the agenda tonight.

No additional comments.

Haven said OK, seeing none, let’s move on to the next item.

Agenda Item #6, FYI:

Item 6a – Pumpkins & Pastures (Video time mark 0:06:40):

• • Pumpkins & Pastures Flyer (page 3/36 of the council packet)

Haven said the next item is For Your Information, and they have an announcement of the Pumpkins & Pastures. This is a family event on October 19th, sponsored by the Chamber [Clarkston Area Chamber of Commerce] and going to be held at Cooks Farm Dairy. Now who doesn’t like to go to Cooks Farm Dairy this time of year? Haven thinks probably no one. Haven asked Smith if there were any flyers in the back. They have them in their packet. DeLorge said yes. Haven thanked DeLorge and said so, you can pick up one of those on the way out. Again, October 19th, that will be a lot of fun.

Haven asked if there were any other For Your Information items. Did anyone want to make an announcement?

No comments.

Haven said OK, hearing none, they will move on to item number seven.

Agenda Item #7, Sheriff Report for September 2023 (Video time mark 0:07:29):

• • Monthly Report (page 4/36 of the council packet)

Haven said the next item is the Sheriff’s Report and Lieutenant Ashley is here. Haven asked if he’d gotten the rank correctly. Sergeant Ashley said it’s “sergeant.” Haven thanked Sergeant Ashley, said he was sorry, and said he’s “John” to him. Sergeant Ashley said exactly.

Sergeant Ashley said so, it looks like they are still progressing when you take a count and everything else. He thinks everyone, everything, actually went well with the whole downtown thing. Haven said great. Sergeant Ashley said they had no problems with parking or speeders or anything like that. Haven agreed. Sergeant Ashley said so, that went pretty well. They still do have the people out there trying to patrol. You know, Sergeant Ashley talked to a couple of the citizens because he was at the whole event the whole day [at the Taste of Clarkston?]. So, they did get to converse about the speeding up and down. In fact, one resident, it was right here at Waldon and Main, they talked to him for a while, and he said it was really nice because it was really quiet. So other than that, he thinks everything went well and everything seems to be progressing. Sergeant Ashley asked if they had any questions about anything.

Haven thanked Sergeant Ashley for all his hard work, and our DPW [Department of Public Works] as well.

Fuller said he had a question. Back in 2022, they had eighty-six for the year, eighty-six misdemeanors. And they’re in October now, they have five. Sergeant Ashley said yes. Now, he will get back to Fuller on that, but he thinks what happened was they found out this year that when people are doing reports or approving reports, they may have a Clarkston address, but it happened here. So, this year they had to change a bunch of reports, but he will find out (unintelligible). Fuller said but that could have been good news. Sergeant Ashley said well, yeah, that’s good news. That’s probably why the numbers seem skewed, because they found that through their Clement [spelling?] system in downtown, that even though there may be a Clarkston mailing, they may live in Davisburg, you know, something like that, because our area actually encompasses like five different areas. So, it may be that the reporting officer put the address down but put the wrong city that it actually happened in there because of the mailing address. Haven said that’s a great question. Sergeant Ashley said he would get back to Fuller for sure next time. Fuller said so, potentially Clarkston folks are going over to Davisburg and (unintelligible crosstalk followed by laughter). Sergeant Ashley said that could be it too.

Haven asked Sergeant Ashley about his community meetings line item. That’s attending, are they ones he attends or the ones he submits a report to, does he know? It’s the community liaison. It has meetings, L3535. Sergeant Ashley asked where they were. Wylie and Haven said towards the bottom. Sergeant Ashley said oh yes. Haven said he assumed that may be meetings – Sergeant Ashley said that’s just the Clements code. All that is is a code that’s community things, and he asked what Haven wanted to know about it. Haven said it looks like in 2022, again they were thinking COVID and stuff. Sergeant Ashley said there was one. Haven said eighteen again. Sergeant Ashley said one that didn’t get recorded. He got here in January. Haven said OK, but what is that? What does that mean? Sergeant Ashley said that just means any type of meetings. That may have to do with the meetings from their substation. The meetings here. Haven said oh, you attend a meeting or give a report. Sergeant Ashley said just a meeting that they would come to that would involve the communities. It could be the, you know, Independence Township also. Haven said OK, so again, this is kind of like Sergeant Ashley’s report because he just came on. Haven said he gets it. Sergeant Ashley said correct. Haven said Sergeant Ashley has been attending a lot, and he’s noticed it. Sergeant Ashley said he tries to get out and about. Haven said sure, Sergeant Ashley is doing great.

Sergeant Ashley said he wants to try and do more of a community liaison role in the downtown. Don’t ask him during Pine Knob season. Haven asked what that looked like to Sergeant Ashley, what does liaison look like to him? Sergeant Ashley said he was hoping to establish some more connections with the businesses and anybody that needs, you know, he’ll be handing out a lot of cards. Haven said OK, great, sign his name. Sergeant Ashley said like he said, he’s been handing them out, so if you guys need a card, he’s been handing them out to most people. That way you at least have a connection, or you have somebody you can call, not at two in the morning, doesn’t help, but you know, you have to have a contact person with the police department. He’s always felt that way, and by him going around in case you have any questions, you know, like, hey, what is this or what is that? He can always get back to you. Instead of just calling up the random phone number and not being able to talk things through. Haven said to get through to somebody, yeah. Sergeant Ashley said people can always e-mail him too, so he always gives that to them. Haven said excellent, thank you. Sergeant Ashley said so yeah, it’s more of like more of a concerted group effort, he guesses. Haven said Sergeant Ashley is very good at that. Sergeant Ashley said we’re all in this together. Haven said for sure and thanked Sergeant Ashley for coming.

Haven asked if there were any thoughts or comments about the report.

No comments. Haven said if not, they would move on to the city manager’s report.

Agenda Item #8, City Manager’s Report (Video time mark 0:12:14):

• • Report Dated October 9, 2023 (page 5/36 of the council packet)

Haven said Smith has three items here.

Smith was thanking the Chamber [Clarkston Area Chamber of Commerce] and congratulating them on the Taste [of Clarkston], which really turned out great. We all enjoyed that.

Dam Risk Reduction Grant. Haven told Smith he read this, and his thought is here that the money’s been slow in transferring from EGLE [Michigan Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy Department] to the project, hasn’t it. Smith agreed. Haven said, you know, that’s been really lethargic, that whole thing. It’s kind of behind the scenes, we don’t see it. We had a commitment early on, but actually the funds transfer was slow. Smith said we’re getting all the paperwork lined up. That’s what’s going to take us some time. So now what this is saying is that it’s fully executed, and invoices can be submitted. Haven said OK. Smith said so, it took a long time to get the red tape worked out where it’s all in place now. Haven said Fishbeck was the engineering firm, right? Smith said they’re the only ones that have invoices so far. Haven said he would think so, you know. And the report is expected, and they talked about this in the Pond Board meeting recently. Try to move it up into a report, into maybe October or late November, early November at least, so that we could get on to the ‘24 funding cycle, and Ryan [Woloszyk(?)] from WRC [Oakland County Water Resources Commission] said that’s not going to happen. Smith said that’s not possible. Haven said so, part of this is that lateness, but anyway, we’re moving ahead.

And then the MML [Michigan Municipal League] conference. Smith is going to Traverse City, Haven’s hometown, on October 18th and 19th. Good.

Haven said all right. Anything else or any questions for Smith about this report?

Smith said he did have, and he didn’t know if this is the right time to talk about it, but he does have some guidance he’s seeking from the city council. So, the sidewalk replacement, remember, they’re going to work on some, and Chet’s [Pardee’s] not even here. Sidewalk replacement.

Smith said so, if they recall, they put in the budget $44,000 for sidewalk slab replacement. And what Smith did is he went around, walked all the sidewalks in town, and there’s about five miles of them. He walked through, and his criteria was ¾”. He’s taken some heat from a couple out of the city, past city residents, who said that was wrong; he should have used the ADA [Americans with Disabilities Act] criteria of ¼”. He used ¾ of an inch, just knowing that they can’t afford to replace all of the sidewalks in town. So, he uses ¾”, and he had estimated that that would fit when he did all that for the budget planning, that that would fit in their budget. Well, lo and behold, inflation, you know, caught him by surprise and both labor costs and concrete costs are way higher. So, he had bid, or he had included, in the budget $44,000, and these four estimates that he now has in hand are much higher than that. The cheapest one is $56,000 and they go as high as $113,000.

Smith said so, this is a bit of a surprise, needless to say, and he needs some guidance from council. They’re way over budget. The cheapest one was $56,000. That’s about $12,000 over his budget. Now all these numbers, they’ll see in the middle a 20% provision line, and that’s because last time what happened, and he took a beating for it, last time, when the contractor is out there replacing a slab and pulls one up and something happens to the slab next to it, or a tree root he finds is going under the other slab, he says Smith should just replace this one here, it’s silly not to. Anyways, that’s just one example, but there are many types of causes for the number to grow once the contractor starts. He’s in this and you have to make a game time decision. Are we doing this or not? The last time Smith did it, he gave the contractor the go ahead, and they were $10,000 over budget.

Smith said so, this time he included a 20% provision on all the quotes, just in case that happens again, the contractor is starting the work, and he realizes it just doesn’t make sense to only do these two slabs, you might as well do these four and fix a larger problem. So, these costs all include that, but nonetheless, even Smith’s quote and Smith’s budget plan for $44,000, included the provision as well. So, Smith said he guesses he’s just looking, he’s not asking for a motion, not asking for change of the agenda or anything. He’s just looking for guidance from council because his options at this point are find more money, go to the fund balance and tap into some additional monies to buoy up the sidewalk replacement budget to get it up to at least $56,000, what the lowest bid contractor here is. Or he can go back and redo his assessment. In other words, kind of relax the standards. So instead of ¾”, maybe he makes it an inch or an inch and quarter, so it’s got to be a bigger gap before he replaces it. That would bring down the quantity of slabs to be replaced. He doesn’t like to do it that way, but if they’re push comes to shove and they only have so much money to spend, that’s an option. So, he just mentions these to them, or they can just wait and do nothing and wait ‘til next year when they have more parking fund money and address sidewalks at that time. Does anybody on council have any thoughts about this?

Wylie said she doesn’t have a thought, but she has a question. What’s the difference between the 38 or 39 driveways and the sidewalks? Smith said so, this is the slabs that go through a driveway area where cars are going to be going over it, those have to be 6” thick per the city ordinance, whereas the rest of them are only 4” thick. So, that’s, you know, 50% more concrete. Wylie said and again, are those, he’s using the same ¾” standard? Smith said yes. Wylie said because they took off, she went to the cheapest one, they took off – you can’t do that. Never mind.

Fuller said so, when they talked about repairing aprons, the Michigan Department of Transportation was involved in that, but sidewalks adjacent to county and state roads, aren’t required to be ADA compliant or anything like that, so you could say one inch, ¾”, whatever. Smith said yes. Fuller said OK.

Smith said ideally, all the money, if we had all the money in the world, yes, we make everything ADA compliant perfectly. Ideally, some might not think this is ideal, but replace all the sidewalks in town. Tear them all up and just go at them a block at a time until they replace all the sidewalks in town. But we have old trees in our historic community, and Smith doesn’t think they want to tear trees down, or they don’t even want to necessarily change all the appearance and put a stark white sidewalk going all the way down all of our streets. So, there are pros and cons to doing that, or just doing it from a safety standpoint, which is what they’ve done so far, it’s just not so much aesthetics, but just safety, and Smith judged that criteria based on how much budget he thinks he has to work with.

Fuller said but the trees are still going to be there, the roots are still going to be growing. Is there a way, do they, when they put a new sidewalk, to trim these roots back and – Smith said they do indeed. They cut out the offending root. They cut it off and tear it out before they pour the new slab. But Smith has seen some relatively fresh concrete slabs, you can tell the difference, right, just by looking, that are heaved. So, some of the roots grow back, or maybe they didn’t get it all, but even some of the most recently replaced concrete, which was four years ago, is now heaved again. It’s never ending.

Haven said he liked Smith’s alternatives, and it said find more money, and that could be fund balance or perhaps, he knows Greg [Coté, city treasurer] was conservative when he estimated parking revenues, and yet they’re not more than they’d like them to be either. But they’re only talking $12,000 here, so he’s not thinking that’s a lot of money. Smith said, yeah, Coté tells him today they have $82,000 in their parking fund balance. $56,000 plus what they’re going to vote on later in this meeting, a proposal to replace the pavement on West Washington for $14,000. $14,000 and $56,000 is $70,000. Haven said $70,000, yeah. Smith said so, they’re still below the $82,000 balance. So, they could still swing them both and still stay within their parking fund.

Haven said then Smith talks about relaxing standards, and he thought Smith was saying about due to some slabs and not others, kind of going around, but Haven wondered if they might just leave one street off the plan, you know, just do the rest and then pick that one up in the next year perhaps. Something like that. Fuller said they could just prioritize the whole thing. Haven said right. Fuller said he means downtown Main Street, Holcomb, probably get a greater percent of traffic than say for sidewalks that feed into downtown, like Clarkston Road.

Rodgers asked Smith what about, like there’s, that’s a huge discrepancy in the bids, like quality-wise, are they talking like apples and apples or like did they – Smith said his sense is that when these companies are getting pushed because of the lack of employees or inflationary costs that they have been, there is a new trend, and some of these contractors just bid high and just say they’re just going to double – Haven said they don’t want it – (continuing), Smith said and if  they take it, that’s just money in their pocket. If they don’t, so be it. They’re struggling to get employees anyway. So, this one, the first one, not picking on anyone, but it’s exactly double the second one. Rodgers and Haven agreed. Smith said why is that? Smith doesn’t know. Is it he’s struggling to get employees, so he’s going to have to pay top dollar to get employees or what’s behind that. Smith has not reviewed these numbers yet with the city engineer. That’s something Smith was hoping to do before their meeting tonight just to see if he has any feedback – Rodgers said insight, yeah – (continuing), Smith said on one contractor versus another. Smith said he’s not familiar with (unintelligible), but if he says, you know, maybe you might not want to consider him. Smith doesn’t know. He’ll just have to find that out.

Haven asked if these were township or county, so Smith didn’t have to go out and find his own. Smith said no, he did have to go off on his own. The only one is the last one, Luigi. Sounds like a good name. (Haven made an unintelligible comment.) He’s the one that did Berkeley and had a vetted price in Berkeley.

Haven asked if any one of these are the ones they dealt with before when they did the replacement slabs in 2019. Smith said no. Italia, who did the 2019 work, is not doing this kind of work, not bidding it right now. Haven said OK. Smith said they respectfully declined to bid. Haven said interesting, OK.

Haven recognized Wylie. Wylie said she was actually in in favor of what Haven and Fuller both discussed. Take care of the major streets like Main Street, Clarkston Road, the roads that get the most foot traffic, and leave the others ‘til another year. Smith said OK.

Casey said he assumes if they do that, it’s going to cost more. Wylie said probably. Casey said the fees will go up. Wylie agreed. Forte said mobilization will go up. Casey agreed. Wylie said but there will be also new ones that will heave up over the winter, probably, so they’ll still be a supply of sidewalks that need work. Smith said OK.

Casey asked what’s the downside of waiting until next year for all of it. Get some more money and do it all. Smith said the quantity will also grow, you know, over winter. Some will heave over the winter, but they absolutely can do that. He doesn’t think there is really any downside. It’s, they have to look at this as a never-ending project. Wylie and Haven agreed. Smith said so, what he didn’t get this year, he gets them next year. Last time, it’s been four years since they’ve done this. He doesn’t think they wait four more years. They’ll just do this this year and then tackle another batch next year. They absolutely can do that.

Fuller said so, when these guys bid is there a certain standard for, you know, the mix of their concrete to some (unintelligible crosstalk between and Fuller and Haven) ratios and so forth. Haven said gravel. Fuller said so, that wouldn’t affect the price. Smith said that was in his specifications, 3500-pound mix. So, that was all in the specifications.

Tom Ryan [city attorney] said he would just say, he knows they haven’t talked to HRC [Hubbel, Roth & Clark, the city’s contract engineer] yet, but they may also provide some technical knowledge about, you know, about lowering the standards or not lowering the standards, and that may be of assistance also to bring back to council about, you know, because they, the Supreme Court, has just ruled, they just changed the trip and fall law in the State of  Michigan. They kind of, they’ve liberalized it, if you will. That’s been on the books twenty years, so that just happened at the end of the last term in the State of Michigan. Casey asked what has changed. Ryan said the open and obvious is not, they restricted that and made it much more easy for a lawsuit to be successful now as opposed to what it was before the standards were stricter. For twenty years, it’s been stricter. A lot of these trip and fall lawsuits have not succeeded, even if it’s over the criteria. If, you know, if it’s there to be seen, it was more difficult for plaintiffs before. But now it’s been liberalized. Smith said that’s very much (unintelligible). Ryan said right. That’s why HRC should, Smith should, you know, talk with them about that as well. Smith said he would.

Haven asked if there was any other help for Smith regarding his request or just input.

Smith thanked them and said it was good feedback.

No additional comments.

Haven said OK, that’s the last item under the city manager’s report and they’re done.

Agenda Item #9 – Motion: Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented (Video time mark 0:28:10):

• • 09-11-2023 Final Minutes (page 6/36 of the council packet)
  • 09-25-2023 Draft Minutes (page 8/36 of the council packet)
  • 10-09-2023 Treasurer’s Report (page 10/36 of the council packet)
  • 10-05-2023 Check Disbursement Report, 09-01-2023 – 09-30-2023 (page 11/36 of the council packet)
  • Carlisle/Wortman, September Invoices (page 19/36 of the council packet)

Haven said and page two, as Paul Harvey would say. Number 9.

Haven said this is acceptance of their consent agenda. Haven said he would entertain a motion and a second to accept their consent agenda. This is the final minutes from 9-11, the draft minutes from 9-25, and the treasurers report from 10-9-23.

Haven asked who would like to move.

Fuller said he would make a motion. Haven thanked Fuller.

Second Wylie. Haven thanked Wylie.

Haven asked if there was any discussion.

No discussion.

Motion to accept the consent agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.

Agenda Item #10, Old Business (Video time mark 0:28:48):

Haven said there was no old business.

Agenda Item #11, New Business (Video time mark 0:28:50):

Item 11a – Clarkston Farm and Garden Club Presentation (Video time mark 0:28:52):

[Note: This item was not on the published agenda. It was added at the beginning of the meeting.]

Haven said under New Business, they have Joette [Kunse]. He said it didn’t hurt too bad, did it. Haven said he loved her selection of paper color. [This document was not included in the council packet posted on the city’s web page. If you want a copy, you’ll need to ask the city.]

Kunse said she was representing the Clarkston Farm and Garden Club, and they’re 75 years old this year. In 1948, a group of women got together in November. And for a kind of an anniversary, they decided they would like to plant daffodils. A little history, 650,000 have been planted on Belle Isle for everybody in Detroit [by Daffodils4Detroit, a project of the Michigan Division of the Woman’s National Farm and Garden Association], and now they’re asking 4 million for the rest of the (unintelligible) Michigan [metro Detroit]. So earlier, we [the Clarkston Farm and Garden Club] bought 1,000 daffodils, which is a lot of daffodils for their President. She’s really interested. So, they decided that they would like to plant some in the village, the city of the village, and some in the township. So, she walked with Haven oh, probably three weeks ago, and they looked at an area which is down by the Bart Clark bridge. Haven said the Bart Clark bridge. Kunse said at the south end of the park, there’s an old, it’s bricked around in a circle, it’s the old Eagle Scout Garden. Haven said Steve Wyckoff’s son did that three years ago.

Kunse said what they were hoping, they will plant the bulbs, maybe with some help from their friends or kids or whatever, and they will just be in the ground all winter. Then they come up in March, April. Probably by the middle to end of April, they will blossom. They were thinking about 300. They don’t really know how many, but it would make a nice yellow circle down there. And then they die down and kind of tie them back. And so, you can just mow over it like your maintenance people would normally do. Then it would come back up and they would try to enhance it more if they lost some.

Kunse said they’re looking at this as probably a three-year project around the township, around the village. And they also have another area in the Huron Lake Land Conservancy [Clinton River Conservancy?] around Clintonville and I-75, so it can be seen from the expressway, but they may have to have the OK of MDOT [Michigan Department of Transportation], so they’re waiting on that a little bit.

Kunse said so, she guesses she’s asking the council if they would consider letting them do that, and that would be their gift to the city.

Haven said pretty nice. For three years, is that what she’s saying? Kunse said yes. Haven said and then after would the city turn it over kind of thing, so it wouldn’t be kind of haphazard for a few years. Kunse said their plan is to continue planting, she doesn’t know, at least for three years. They’re thinking 3,000 bulbs, but she doesn’t know. Haven said they might like this and continue on. Kunse said she didn’t think that it’s ever going to be something that you’re, it could get scraggly if it wasn’t replanted, she guesses. (Haven made an unintelligible comment.) Kunse said daffodils are deer resistant unless the deer are just really hungry.

Kunse said so, that’s their proposal.

Wylie asked on average, how often do daffodil bulbs rebloom, about how many years. Forte said forever until someone digs them up. Kunse agreed. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Kunse said you do get squirrels that dig them up and things like that. Fuller said there were some in front of his school for twenty-some years. More than twenty years. Wylie said OK.

Haven said they keep supplementing tulips at their house, but is a daffodil different, is it more durable? Fuller said they last forever.

Wylie said she would make a motion that they allow the Clarkston Farm and Garden Club to plant daffodil bulbs in the former Eagle Scout area south of the Bart Clark Bridge. Second Haven.

Haven said there was a motion and second and asked if there was any discussion.

Haven recognized Cara Catallo. Catallo said she just wanted to further the possibility of, she’s heard recently like a variety of complaints about the Washington and Main parking lot, like the outskirts of that, and it would be delightful to have something colorful and lively like that in the heart of our downtown too. So, it would, you know, if there’s any chance of that. Kunse said get extra bulbs. Catallo agreed. Kunse said she would bring that back to the committee. Haven said it’s a good idea.

Forte said she would like to go off of that and say that if they need help with the planting plan, she will volunteer. Kunse said they’ll let her know, absolutely. Wylie asked if she wanted two. Kunse said absolutely. (Haven made an unintelligible comment.) Forte said she will say putting them closer to water would be phenomenal. So, anything you can do in the wetlands or like close to the wetlands – (unintelligible comment) – (continuing), Forte said they’ll take off like gangbusters. But they do well pretty much everywhere. Haven said great.

Haven said they have a motion and second and asked if there was any further discussion.

No discussion.

The motion passed by unanimous voice vote.

Haven said the motion carries, congratulated Kunse, and thanked her for bringing it to them. Kunse thanked the council.

Item 11b – Motion: Trick or Treat Hours (Video time mark 0:34:36):

• • Motion – Halloween Hours in the City (page 22/36 of the council packet)

All right, now the first item on their previous agenda is a motion for the timing of their Trick or Treat this year.

(Haven read the motion.)

Haven said so, they’re going with this motion now. Haven said he would entertain a motion, first of all, to adopt this. Motion by Rodgers; second Forte.

Haven asked if there was any discussion. They discussed this last year.

Casey said he’s heard from some people who are working regular jobs. If they work until 5:00, sometimes it’s hard to get home and get ready to roll by 6:00, and he thinks there are some communities that do it 7:00-8:00. Is that something the council would consider? Forte agreed.

Wylie said she thinks it’s hard to go against Independence Township because we’re surrounded by them. Haven said a coordinated effort. Wylie said she thinks that’s, yeah, they’re the big dog and we’re kind of following along with them because so many of their kids come to us.

Haven said well, it makes it easier on the parents. They don’t have to wonder, you know, then it’s a coordinated effort. That’s the idea there.

Wylie said she realizes that’s a hardship. She remembers struggling. You’ve got to be home in time to feed the kids and get them out trick or treating. Rodgers said the little ones started to melt too. Haven said yes, the younger ones are harder to take around.

Casey said it ought to be dark. Rodgers said the time used to be changed before. Casey said it’s not dark at 6:00. Rodgers said it doesn’t change now ‘til after Halloween. Casey said Halloween needs to be dark. Rodgers said she agrees. Wylie said it just needs to be warm enough. Haven said there’s a tradition around here, he can tell. Lamphier said (unintelligible) rain. Wylie said warm and dry. Rodgers agreed and said that’s a Michigan requirement.

Haven said this is a roll call. This is a resolution. Wylie said no, you have a motion. Haven said they just have the opportunity to vote on it individually for any of this.

Ryan said they can call a roll if they’d like. Haven said sure, that’s always an option.

Haven asked if there was any other discussion.

No additional discussion.

DeLorge asked if Haven would like her to do a roll call.

Haven asked if the council was ready.

No comments.

Haven said OK, sure, do a roll call.

Wylie, Casey, Forte, Lamphier, Haven, Fuller, and Rodgers voted yes.

Haven said OK, motion carries.

Item 11c – Discussion: Election Update (Video time mark 0:37:31):

• • Public Notice, Public Accuracy Test, Monday October 23, 2023 (page 23/36 of the council packet)
  • Public Notice, Close of Registration for the November 7, 2023, City General Election, Monday October 23, 2023 (page 24/36 of the council packet)
  • Sample ballot (page 25/36 of the council packet)

Haven said all right, the next item is the discussion of their election update. And that is C. So, here’s the resolution. (Unintelligible comment.) Haven said he was just trying to unscramble his notes. Haven said yeah, that’d be it; he was looking at the wrong letter. So, is this a presentation? Did DeLorge want to talk to them about this? It’s in here.

DeLorge said it’s a discussion. It’s just an election update. Haven said there it is. OK.

Haven said he would just read this, OK?

(Haven read the public notice regarding the Public Accuracy Test.)

Haven said so, it’s just an announcement. He asked if there was any discussion about this or questions.

DeLorge said it’s been posted in the newspaper. The Clarkston News and (unintelligible). Haven said good.

Haven said OK, the next item –

Wylie asked to be recognized for a question. Haven said sure.

Wylie asked if DeLorge knew when the absentee ballots will be going out. DeLorge said they already are going out. Wylie thanked DeLorge. DeLorge said they are in the process, yes. Wylie thanked DeLorge. Haven said some people already voted, he hears. There’s a rumor.

Haven said all right, so the next item then is C, Resolution – Ordinance 144, update to adopt Oakland County’s most recent stormwater standards.

Smith said they’re still on, there’s more election-related information. Haven said we are. Does Smith mean more of the subsequent pages or something? Smith said yes. Haven said all right.

Smith said notice of close of registration for the November 7^th election. He asked Haven if he got that page. Haven said he thought they were all under one, but maybe not.

Haven said he would read it.

(Haven the read the notice.)

Haven asked if all of the items were germane to Clarkston. All of them? He guessed they were. DeLorge said yes, these are where you can register. Haven said OK, so he can read them all.

(Haven continued to read from the notice.)

Haven said so, DeLorge is going to be here on Saturday. That’s the point of all that. DeLorge said yes. Before the election, yes.

(Haven continued to read from the notice.)

Haven said then there’s a sample ballot attached here, and there are no proposals. (DeLorge made an unintelligible comment.) Haven said there are simply three candidates – Gary Casey, Theodore Quisenberry, and Laura Rodgers.

Haven asked if that concludes the – (unintelligible response). Haven said good.

Ryan asked to be recognized for a comment. Haven recognized Ryan.

Ryan said he wasn’t there the last meeting. There was some talk about this contract with the county for early voting, and he just wants them to know that the county contracts are the county contracts, and they take it, and DeLorge and Ryan talked, initially it was going to be three people. Three communities involved – Brandon, us, and the township. Brandon dropped out. So, it’s the two of us. He knows there’s been saying about well, it’s 50%, they’ve got 30,000 registered voters and we’ve got 820 or something. So, it didn’t seem fair, but we’re going to, we’ve been talking with the township. The county doesn’t care what we do relative to that, if we want to make it more equitable. That’s just all the county contracts, because they’re in charge of the elections. This is for next year, for the general election, for the state election. So, we’re going to talk with Independence relative to making that more equitable, but the county’s contract is one-size-fits-all. If you’ve got four communities, you split it in four. You got two, you split it in two, and that’s why the county contract reads that way. But we’re in discussions with Independence Township to make that more equitable. Haven thanked Ryan. Ryan said the county contract is the county contract.

Haven said this has to do with the nine days prior to the election day, right? Ryan said this is the early voting, the law was just passed to allow increased voting opportunities for people in the State of Michigan. Haven said right.

Fuller said Brandon pulled out. How are they handling it? Ryan said they are going to do it on their own, apparently. (DeLorge made an unintelligible comment.) Fuller said so, they’re going to bear all this. Wouldn’t it have been in our best interest just like theirs, if Independence Township doesn’t go along with a more equitable, you know, division of the cost? DeLorge said consider like if we pay half if we go with Independence. If we go on our own, we pay 100%. Fuller said why would why did Brandon pull out then? What was the advantage to Brandon pulling out? Delorge said it was a third, so then it would have been divided by three. When Brandon pulled out, they had their own reasons for pulling out, but they have their township, they have more money. Haven said it makes sense. DeLorge said they have political issues with the county, with another township. The state is going to provide all this equipment, for brand new equipment, which is going to be quite costly, and they’re going to try to subsidize as much as they can of the staffing.

Fuller said he shared a story, an NBC online story, today with the mayor that this is a total mess in Michigan, that they aren’t getting machines out. They aren’t getting the software out. Haven said they are testing it. Fuller said they were caught off guard when the state voted this in. It will be interesting.

Ryan said right, but we’ve got a year, right. It’s not this election cycle. It’s next year. Fuller said aren’t there some changes this year? DeLorge said well, she doesn’t have to because she thinks the City of the Village of Clarkson does not have to go this year because it is just for the city council. Ryan said right. DeLorge said for three. Fuller said oh, OK. Haven agreed. DeLorge said so, it’s not a state. Fuller said so, it’s not affecting us like other areas. Haven said oh, he sees. DeLorge said so, she definitely did not want to be a guinea pig for that yet. And then when she does go next year with Independence, we shouldn’t have all those issues because they’re getting equipment for, to the city, you know, the township and the city, but it’s just one amount. So, that way, DeLorge doesn’t have to worry about getting them tested, getting any of that done, any of the cost of that and they don’t have to get equipment for 45. They’re getting equipment for 25.

Haven said but DeLorge is here on these days, you know, in anticipation of this year’s election, here at this precinct. DeLorge said correct, yes. Ryan said yes, she has to by law. DeLorge said absolutely. Haven said OK.

Ryan said so, they’ll get back to them on that other, but (unintelligible crosstalk). Haven thanked Ryan for the explanation. He appreciates it. Ryan said it was one-size-fits-all for the county. Haven said yeah. Ryan said they don’t want to get the weeds on it, which they’ll do with the township. Haven said OK.

Item 11d – Resolution: Ordinance 144 Update (to adopt Oakland County’s Most Recent Storm Water Standards) (Video time mark 0:47:04):

• • Resolution – Modification of Ordinance No. 144 (page 26/36 of the council packet)
  • Ordinance No. 144, Marked Up Copy (page 27/36 of the council packet)

Haven said all right. This is C. Resolution. Is that right? C. Wylie said they are on C.

Ryan said this is just the first reading. Haven said yeah, that’s a good point. Ryan made that point to Haven earlier, that this is a resolution, but it’s just the first read of it. So, it’s available for reading, obviously. C, in your packet. And then they’ll vote at the next meeting on that, right? Ryan said correct. Wylie asked if Haven had it. Haven said yeah, he had it here, thank you.

Ryan said this is a large, it’s a large packet that folks at the County Water Resource Commission puts together, all the standards for stormwater management, so we don’t have to do it. We’ve already adopted this ordinance by reference, but they update it from time to time. So, we’re allowed to do with these types of documents, the suggestion is instead of doing it every time they’ve updated it, that we’ll just keep a copy and then when it gets updated at the county, then we’ll just have a copy here at the city, so we won’t have to continuously adopt it. Haven said that’s nice. Very nice. Ryan said but as they update their regulations, then they’ll be here. They’ll give us notification, because if, when we adopt this, we’ll give them notice that we’ve adopted them and their standards, which we’ve already adopted now. But they change them every few years, he guesses, and you know, update them for best practices, and then they’ll, when they change them, they’ll send us a revised packet of what the changes are so that our building officials and whatnot, planners, will know what the new standards are to incorporate in any kind of new development or any kind of changes.

Haven said we would have the ability later then to change our minds. Right now, we’re making a resolution just to kind of keep with it and not have to bring it before the council each time. It just says from time to time amended. Ryan said right no, we can – (interrupting Ryan), Haven said we can enter it. Ryan said the we can rescind orders any time we want to. Haven said right, exactly. OK. Ryan said stormwater management is (unintelligible). Haven said yeah, he knows. It’s just a technicality for the city. Smith said he doubted – Haven said we would ever do it. Smith said they know way more about it. Haven said that’s for sure.

Smith said this is part of their MS-4 permitting every year that they have to do, and S4, the 4S are separate storm sewer system, and S4, what that acronym stands for is Municipal Separate Storm Sewer System, and there are standards that we have to follow. So, as water discharges out of our storm drains and into the Mill Race or into the Clinton River, there are standards that you have to follow. They want to make sure there aren’t other, you know, chemicals certainly, or any other kind of impurities making their way into these discharge (unintelligible), a storm drain drains into a waterway. So, rather than the city maintaining our own standards, for years we’ve adopted what Oakland County has done. The Oakland County folks have put, the Water Resource Commission has put, extensive work into this. As Ryan says, it’s a huge document, 120-some pages. Huron Lake Land Conservancy. Far be it for us to try to replicate that on our own. We just couldn’t do it. So, it just makes sense to adopt what Oakland County has done and many of the other, if not all, of the other communities in Oakland County have done the same.

Smith said so what, as Ryan alluded, there is one very simple change to this ordinance. Haven said in their packet. Smith said so, in here, in section 1.01, you see where Smith struck through what previously it said. So, it used to say on January 1, 2006, and then revised April 24th, 2012, that would just keep going because it gets revised every three or four years. Rather than list all those dates and revisions, just a very simple sentence is saying, as amended from time to time and then you’re covered. You don’t need to revise your ordinance every two or three or four years when the county makes their revisions.

Haven said so, they’re not suggesting this, Smith is suggesting it, right? Smith said actually, HRC, they are. Smith doesn’t do MS-4. Haven said no. Smith said he couldn’t possibly be out there taking samples of every little water drop that comes out of our waterways. Haven said right. Smith said HRC does that for us. They are the MS-4 experts, and they recommended this. Haven said OK. Smith said it’s something they’ve done in other communities, make it more generic and just say as these are amended by the Water Resources Commission, we would just naturally adopt.

Smith said as Haven said, if for some reason in the future we wanted to rescind that decision, but Smith can’t imagine the city doing that. We just don’t have the resources that the county does.

Haven said so, he’s not going to read the resolution. Ryan said they just did the reading, and he would say, if Haven wouldn’t mind, Ryan would just do the first reading of the ordinance because you’re not talking about the resolution tonight, they’re just – (interrupting Ryan), Haven said all right. The resolution will come up in the next meeting then. Ryan said correct. Haven said all right.

Smith said he did say at the end of that that this is just the first reading, and this approves the first reading, but if you’d rather not do any vote tonight, just do the first reading and then we’ll do the vote next week. Ryan said yeah, right, because we need to have two, unless it’s an emergency ordinance, which this isn’t. Haven said no. Ryan said the city charter requires two readings.

Haven asked Ryan to go ahead and read the resolution then. (Unintelligible crosstalk.)

Ryan said so, it’s just, this would be an ordinance to adopt by reference the Oakland County Water Resources Commissioner engineering design standards for stormwater facilities, the City of the Village of Clarkson ordains. In Section 1.01, talks about the adoption by reference of the of the design standards for stormwater facilities, as indicated by the city manager. Section 2.01 is a repealer of any inconsistent ordinances. Section 3.01 is a severability clause. Section 4.01 is a violation or penalty clause, which is a municipal civil infraction. And then section 5.01 is an effective date. It would be effective pursuant to city charter twenty days after publication as required by the city charter. So that would be, the vote would be the next meeting. If you want to adopt this, it would change this to indicate it would be the next meeting date.

Haven asked Smith to put it back on the agenda. Smith agreed.

Ryan said he thinks that would be the first reading. Haven said this one. He asked if they needed to do anything to make this the first reading, or just, you did it, or done it. Ryan said they’ve done it. Haven said you’ve done did it. OK.

Item 11e – Resolution: Cost Participation Agreement for Paving of W. Washington (Video time mark 0:53:59):

• • Resolution – Repaving of W. Washington Road (page 29/36 of the council packet)
  • Cost Participation Agreement Between the Board of County Road Commissioners of the County of Oakland and the City of the Village of Clarkston (page 30/36 of the council packet)
  • Estimated Project Cost (page 34/36 of the council packet)

Haven said all right. 11D then is a resolution. A cost participation agreement for paving of West Washington.

Haven said Smith better walk them through it. Haven can read it if Smtih wants. Smith said no, he can give you the Cliff Notes version.

Smith said so, as they recall, he’s given them an update in previous meetings about the desire to repave Depot Road. Well, that was all approved. That’s happening. October 21^st that’s happening. So, Depot Road will be completely ground down right to the dirt and then built up with the four inches of new asphalt, and that includes the angle parking as well. So, that will all be done starting October 21^st.

Smith said when we signaled to the county that we were doing Depot Road, that kind of raised their radar. Smith said he shouldn’t say the county, he should say the Road Commission of Oakland County, that while the contractors are in the area, it only makes sense that they pull ahead a project they were going to do next year or the year after, and that is South Holcomb and White Lake Road down to the city limit, which is just the other side of the bridge down there, not quite to Deer Lake Road. Haven agreed. Smith said so, the county decided to do those at the same time as Depot Road.

Smith said OK, why did you leave off West Washington? That is a county-maintained road, but it’s in as bad a shape as South Holcomb in spots, especially as you approach Main Street. You talk about trip and falls, right in the crosswalk, there’s some kind of nasty, rough areas of the roadway, and so it’s been on Smith’s to do list to get that repaved as quickly as possible. So, Smith approached the Road Commission and said “hey, we have triparty funds.” Triparty funds are something that we signed up for a few years ago. The three parties that that go into this is the city, Oakland County, and the Road Commission, those three groups, we each contribute one-third towards a project that’s on a road commission-maintained road. Smith can’t use this on Miller. He can’t use this on East Church. He can only use it on a county-maintained road, but it’s useful in areas where the county, for whatever reason, wasn’t going to do something, but we would like it done. That’s where triparty funds are very useful. You can say, “hey, Oakland County, I know you weren’t going to do this on your own dime, but I’d like to do it using triparty funds.” If they agree, which they have, they’ll pay a third, the county will pay a third, and we pay a third.

Smith said so, we can get West Washington paved for, the bottom line here, is $14,000 out of our pocket. The other $28,000 will be paid between the road commission and the county. So, it’s a very cost-effective way to get West Washington paved.

Smith said hey, now, you might ask the question, “why do we pay it all? Why don’t we just wait until they escalate it high enough to the point where they want to repave it all on their dime?” Well, Smith asked that question of his road commission counterpart, and he said well, here’s the thing. For the last three years, they’ve had COVID money, and a ton of COVID money, and they have been doing a ton of paving, the road commission and Oakland County, if you haven’t noticed that they have, they have been doing a lot of repaving. He said that is all grinding to a halt. All those monies that they got from the federal government and the state are just drying up at a rapid pace. So, he said we’re going to see road paving slow way, way, way down over the next two to three years. So, he said you can wait. You can decide you don’t want to spend your triparty $14,000 and not pave West Washington, but chances are because of funding slowdown, it’ll be three to four years before they do it on their own, because to do a little road like that now becomes very cost ineffective, to just to come out mobilize just to do that little one block road. So, he said chances are it would be pushed off and pushed off and pushed off. He said the crews are there, they’re already mobilized, so you’re not having to pay that, so, it’s a relatively small bill. He strongly encouraged us to do it, and Smith strongly encourages the council to do it. Smith thinks it’s a great way of spending the city’s triparty funds.

Smith said where would our $14,000 come from? It would come from the parking fund, so it’s not coming out of their operational budget. It would come out of the parking fund money, which is earmarked as they know for roads, sidewalks, and parking lots. So, it’s a perfect use of the money, and it’s a road that needs repaving. It’s just a good all-round decision in Smith’s mind.

Haven said sidewalks was another $12,000 consideration, right, increment here. Can they squeak in the $12,000 and the $14,000? Is that under the $70,000, you know, that Haven thinks was Smith’s overall. Smith said so, if he goes with the $56,000 on here plus, and that includes the $12,000 over, $56,000 plus $14,000 is $70,000. Coté tells Smith he has $82,000 in his parking fund as of today. Haven said $82,000. Smith said so he has plenty of funds to do the sidewalks and this, and even this, their guidance they’ve given him, which he think is appropriate, is scale this back a little bit, just do the sidewalks that are the most frequently used, so this won’t even come in at $56,000. It will be something less than that. Haven said OK.

Smith said so, they definitely have the monies in their parking fund to do this without touching a dime out of their operational. Haven said parking funds are really paying off now in these little increments. Smith said it is indeed. It is very, very helpful. Haven said that’s what they wanted it to do. Good.

Haven said so, it is a resolution. He said he didn’t think he had a motion to adopt and a second, did he. Smith said no. Haven said he needs to get that, so who would move to adopt.

Wylie said she would make a resolution that they pave West Washington, $14,214 our share, paid from city parking fund 221-000-001.000, that’s the account. Haven said .000, is that right? Wylie said yes. Haven said make sure we get the decimal point.

(In response to some background noise, Fuller told an unidentified person in the audience to turn the volume down.)

Haven said all right, so, they have a motion, and they need a second. Would anyone else like to be brave. Second Casey. Haven said sold, gold, to Casey.

Haven said so, Wylie moved, and Casey seconded to adopt.

Haven asked if there was any discussion about this. They have the explanation.

No discussion.

Haven said crickets.

Haven said OK, so take the roll then, please.

Lamphier, Wylie, Rodgers, Forte, Casey, Fuller, and Haven voted yes.

Haven said very good deal.

Item 11f – Motion – Approval of Wording for Depot Park Survey (Video time mark 1:01:47):

• • Motion – Depot Park Survey Wording (page 35/36 of the council packet)
  • Draft Depot Park Survey (page 36/36 of the council packet)

Haven said OK, one more. Motion to approve the wording for the Depot Park survey.

Haven said now this was, the Friends of Depot Park were benefited [requested?] from a lot of council to get as much input as they could on plans that they presented here back when they got the check from the Optimist Club. And so, they did, they made a full presentation then. They had the secondary presentation at the library here on the 6th. These are sort of generalized, you know, presentations to whoever, but they wanted to hear from their constituency in the village, the residents, not just the voting public, but actually every residential home. So, they devised this little, simple Depot Park survey which lists the things that they were shown before and to just take the temperature of our citizens in a very simple way. Do you like it, or don’t you like it? You could take this really into the weeds and put all kinds of other information on it.

Haven said this basically is a document that helps them think about critical mass or how people feel. Obviously, nothing gets approved except the council approves it and at that juncture, once they develop a hierarchy of desirability, then they can do research and bring actual resolutions to council one at a time as they are studied and so on. So, this just gives the community an opportunity to look at it. Accompanying this will be an 8 ½ x 11 version of what Haven gave them, an 11 x 17 couple of weeks ago version of it. But then Smith, Haven thinks, wisely said let’s, let’s run by council because he thinks Smith did this previously with the request of our residents to give their zip codes, is that right? Smith went to everyone and said – Smith said the only other time since he’s been here, it’s the only other time he’s done a city-wide mailing, he brought to council at that time, and Steve Percival was mayor and asked Smith to do this, to bring to council the wording of that city-wide mailing just because you want council to bless it. So, Smith just thought if that was precedent, then you should approve this as well. Haven agreed.

Haven said so, it is a motion. Haven said he would make the motion with this. Any second on the motion and then they can talk about it. Second Rodgers.

Haven said OK, motion and second and asked if there was any discussion, anything they’d like to see changed or talk?

Wylie said before they get into a discussion, she kind of wanted to talk a little bit about this library meeting. She was, well, she was a little unhappy to see that there is an announcement for a city-wide meeting on Facebook. She never heard anything about it. She thought that should be something that should have been brought before council before a meeting like that was held. It was also pretty fast – Forte agreed – (continuing), Wylie said like she couldn’t go to either of those – Forte said same – (continuing), Wylie said she doesn’t know what was said. She doesn’t know what happened. It would be nice to have some feedback before moving on to another step. To her, this library thing was a city-wide function, and she doesn’t know why it didn’t come before the city. She doesn’t think Smith knew anything about it. She certainly doesn’t know if anybody on council knew anything about it. Forte said no. Wylie said it seemed to be kind of a one person or one committee show. And she doesn’t think that’s how, the mayor has no more power in terms of how they do business in the city, she thinks in an emergency or running meetings, and she just didn’t see that was how they do business.

Forte said yeah, she was shocked, to be honest, like that this has come forth and those two, like she just felt like kind of blindsided, because she felt like they voted it down in the last meeting and then it was kind of like, well, I’m going to the public to get their opinion, to kind of go over your head and like, maybe that’s an emotional way of responding, but that’s kind of how she felt. She kind of felt blindsided, like she would just like to hear about this stuff before getting screenshots of it from Facebook. As a city council person, it would have been nice.

Haven said understand one thing. This is different than what they discussed last time, OK, because this is the entire plan which was presented to them two weeks ago or more, OK, in this room. And they got a copy of it, OK, so they aren’t blindsided by a long shot, OK. The difficulty in our culture today is how to get word out, OK. So, they are taking every opportunity to get the word out. Two of those opportunities were at CIDL [Clarkston Independence District Library], OK? Because that’s been, how many times in this room has it been suggested they use the library to communicate with people, OK. Wylie said Chet [Pardee], many times. Haven said exactly, so, that was the reason, OK, they did that, OK. It wasn’t to surprise anything or anybody but to have an opportunity. Now they’re willing to do more of those, you know, if they want, in the month of October just to get the word out more. But again, Haven thinks the important constituency for this, this council, is their residents. They need to weigh in.

Forte said yeah, she doesn’t disagree with that. Haven said OK, well, that’s all this is about. Forte just thinks it would have been, it would have showed a little bit more decorum to just send them an e-mail that this was going to happen, like, she doesn’t have social media. Haven said well, it was on Smith’s email to the whole community. Wylie said well after, she thinks it was after the fact, and she also looked under what authority did Haven as mayor announce that – Forte said the next day or something. Haven said it wasn’t a public meeting. There’s no public meeting, it said it’s a presentation, OK.

Rodgers said she did find it interesting that when they talked about the whole light situation last week and yes, it was voted down, that one of the things that was discussed was the necessity for community input. Haven said yes. Rodgers said and she actually asked the specific question so, what would you like to see? And the answer that she got was polling, surveys, meetings because the Friends of Depot Park hold their meetings during the day and they can’t (unintelligible crosstalk), can’t come. Wakefield said like the words she said, like she’s the one who said that. Rodgers said she’s just recapping Wakefield.

Rodgers said so, in doing, in following those things, polls were sent out from social media, whether or not those are positive or negative, they were sent out and results were found, and the Friends of Depot Park wanted to have a meeting at the library to get community involvement there. There were, she doesn’t know, 25-30 people there maybe. Haven said 25. Rodgers said and there’s another one this Friday. It, in no way, she doesn’t think it meant, she doesn’t know, she attended because she saw it on Facebook. She didn’t think, she didn’t get the feeling while she was there that it was any kind of secret, hidden kind of thing. It was just like, hey, we really want to see what, the Friends of Depot Park is who she’s referring to when she says we, not herself, the Friends of Depot Park were saying that they really wanted to see what is it that you all want with our money that we received? Is it, you know, are you hating that welcome arch, are you hating that pavilion or are you like, huh, well, maybe I would like to see a welcome arch or yeah, maybe I would like to see a pavilion.

Rodgers said and so, there was a re-presentation of what they’ve all seen already. And questions, very valid questions. There were comments in regard to pavilions and lights and archways. There was, all of that was discussed. This was shown, you know, there. So, she guesses, she feels kind of like we, they can, the Friends Depot Park said there too that they would have more meetings if that was what was necessary, but there has to be a starting point. Does it, does the, you know, historical commission [Historic District Commission], when they have informative meetings, they’re talking about doing some kind of thing in January for people that are renovating their house, they want to have meetings that talk to what is appropriate, what isn’t, you know, just all generally maybe they might do that, they might do this. Do they need to come to us to get permission to have those meetings when they’re trying to help the community. She means they’re here to do what the community wants. So, 1,000 meetings will give them more input. These are just two meetings, and it really surprises her, the feelings, that the emotion that comes from that, because really, it was just, she thinks, [to Haven] correct her if she’s wrong, Haven is part of Friends of Depot Park, she’s not, was it appeared to her as it was a way to say hey, these are the things that we’re looking at, yay, nay, because there’s no sense in researching, you know, night sky lights if everyone in town says “I hate the idea of lights” or there’s no sense in researching how to build pavilions if everybody in town says “I hate pavilions.” So, she doesn’t think that it was anything secretive going on.

Rodgers said she thinks that it was out there as just another means, because it was mentioned at the meeting, Rodgers said Forte is right, it was mentioned by Forte, come to think about it, that you have Friends of Depot Park meetings at 9:00 that could not be attended. So, for the month of October, if you’re interested in the park, you can do a 9:00 a.m. meeting on the third Tuesday or you can do, you could have done last Friday, you could do this Friday, so there’s only one weekend in October that doesn’t have a meeting going on. Rodgers is sure that if you want to have meetings in November, she’s sure the Friends of Depot Park will have that meeting too, but it’s been suggested ad nauseum about using the library and she thinks that’s what they did. She doesn’t think there was anything secretive or backhanded in it. That’s just her view on it.

Forte asked if she could respond. Rodgers said yeah, absolutely. Forte said so, that’s not, she’s not like saying don’t get public opinion. That’s not what she’s advocating for. She thinks the library was a great choice by the Friends of Depot Park. She thinks the survey is a wise idea, obviously. She was the one who suggested it. She will say there is a way in which things are done, like as someone who’s done this professionally. No one asked her like, what her opinion is of how she would do this like, which she would have given willingly like, that’s why she’s on city council. But what she has an issue with is that they voted down the lights and now she sees it in, like on Facebook, in these meetings, on other things where it’s like asking the public’s input after they voted it down, so that that’s where she was like, wait, they voted this down so, but maybe like, she’s not sure, so like she’s not sure if like maybe that should have just been not included in the next steps of the plan. Maybe they should have – (interrupting Forte), Rodgers said but she thought Forte’s basis was because they didn’t have community input. So, you’re saying that if, you know, 98% of the people respond that yes, they want lights because there was a four, four to two vote – Haven said five-two – (continuing), Rodgers said five to two vote by the people right here in this room without community input, that we should never address it again. She thought that was what Forte was saying, and maybe she misinterpreted it, was that Forte was voting it down because she didn’t have community support, she didn’t have community input. Rodgers said they’re there to do whatever the community wants them to do, so if 800 people send back, yeah, they want lights, then they probably should. If 800 people send back or, you know, the majority, that’s a big number, if the majority of people say no, they really don’t want them, then you are 100% right, they should not do them.

Forte said so, she guesses to explain her point of view. So, the reason, she does agree on all public projects, you should always have stakeholder engagement, that’s without question. That’s not what she had an issue with, and she did vote it down, but she voted it down because she doesn’t think we need more lights. The cost of putting it in, yes, is covered, but the cost of electricity isn’t, the cost of maintenance isn’t. She didn’t see a warranty in the scope of services. There is a lot of maintenance that goes into having pavilions, and there’s liability of lighting of public space beyond the hours of recreation and, like those are the opinions of why she voted it down, not, but she also agrees with there always should be public engagement. It can never hurt you, like agree that, like we are representing the people that we’re voted into office by. But she’s also representing her opinion, which she just laid out. So yeah, she’s not like saying anything against having public engagement. She’s just saying that, like she would have liked an e-mail just being told, like, hey, this is what it’s going to be, please attend if you can. That’s it. That’s all she’s saying, like, she’s not attacking.

Haven said but he thinks that happened as soon as they could schedule. He means, they let people know. Wylie said she didn’t think it happened until she complained about it. She saw it on Facebook, she emailed Haven, and she said what’s going on, and then that’s when Haven sent an email. Wylie’s issue is still under what authority, she means, they’re, this is not just some club. They’re a government organization. And there’s a way to do things. To Wylie, this sounded like a public meeting. It should have been announced. She thinks the city council should have been informed. She thinks the city manager should have been told in advance that this was taking place. It’s nothing to do with what their vote was and what the people say. She thinks this was done by the wrong process and she really, and again, she doesn’t know by what authority the mayor schedules something like this when the mayor is really just a member of city council who presides at the meeting and has special privileges under – (Haven attempted to interrupt Wylie) – Wylie said excuse her, excuse her, special privileges – Haven said he knows – Wylie said that they’re allowed but have nothing to do with holding this meeting.

Haven said there’s not, there’s not special privileges. This is about informing the public and the public requested to be informed, OK. This council requested. He asked Forte what did she need to know? He made notes about what she needs to know. She wants to talk about Dark Sky, he [Casey] wants to talk about more light pollution, OK. They’re going to address all those issues. Casey said that’s the same thing. Forte agreed. Haven said well, yeah, it’s very similar. Wylie said it’s the same thing. Haven said it is, OK, so they’re going to address all that, right. But without knowing what Forte, they asked (unintelligible) when she turned it down.

Casey said well, this doesn’t, well, let him say he has no, he doesn’t think it was very well publicized. He didn’t know about this meeting either. Haven told Casey it’s a starting point. He means, they’re cumulatively, they’re approaching this, this is down the road, the next step in the accumulation. Casey said but these are just, you know, basically bullet points and with compared to the lighting, there’s no information as to the extent of it. Haven said exactly. This is just a floater to see what people have a like or a dislike for the subject. They have to bring the whole thing back to the council, OK, for approval with all kinds of the specs and so on that they’re talking about here. But how else do you get public opinion? He challenges this council to tell him how in the world you communicate in this culture today, OK. It’s not about any egos or authority or, what he’s hearing, OK, here is that this is a sort of a power play here, and he doesn’t appreciate that, frankly. Wylie said well, that’s what happened. Haven said at the request, no, it’s not a power play. Wylie said that’s exactly what happened. Haven said the request was made over and over again for public input, OK. Wylie said then you wait until this meeting, and you say, OK, we had a request for public input. I want to do this, this, this, this. Haven said it happened at the last meeting. Wylie said but there was nothing scheduled. Haven said the request for public input was – (interrupting Haven) – Wylie said yes, they did. They asked for a lot of things; they asked for a lot of things. Haven said they scheduled it after the last meeting, OK.

Casey said it wasn’t publicized. Wylie said Haven didn’t tell them. Haven said they published it as soon as they could at every meeting they could, OK. Wylie said no. Absolutely did not. She disagrees with that 100%. Haven said he listed all the ways that they published it, OK. Wylie said after she complained. Haven said Wylie has listed her complaint. He doesn’t care about her complaint. That’s fine. She can complain.

Wylie said she emailed Haven and said this is on Facebook. Why is this on Facebook? What’s going on? Haven did not inform anybody. And then she saw the library thing and again she sent Haven an e-mail. Does anybody on the city council know about this? She doesn’t think that’s the right way for a government to conduct business. It should have been a public meeting, it should have been – (interrupting Wylie), Haven said and she’s invited. He’s saying – (interrupting Haven), Wylie said after the fact. Haven said (unintelligible) not before the fact. Wylie said Haven can say all the stuff he wants. She 100% disagrees with the way he did this. Haven said that’s fine, she can.

Wylie said she doesn’t disagree with getting public input. That’s one of the things she advocated along with – (interrupting Wylie), Haven said so how do we do that, how do we do that. Wylie said you do it after talking to council about it, not just unilaterally saying you’re having a meeting. Haven said he got it after the council objected and said that they wanted input. Wylie said and then you talk to – (interrupting Wylie), Haven said he doesn’t see the problem here frankly.

Casey said it looked like an end run to him. Haven said that Casey was using emotional language. This is not an end run.

Rodgers said maybe it’s because they weren’t at the meeting on Friday. Maybe, maybe that’s, maybe that’s the reason, maybe, and she’s not saying that he needed to hear, that he didn’t know about it, or whatever, but there was a lot of good information from people that were beyond this group right here. The reasons why they liked, not just the lighting, not just the pavilion, there was a lot of good discussion outside of this group. This group’s feelings have been very well stated. And so, she thinks the Friends of Depot Park, which is their own group, wanted to get information from others about what was going on and it was very interesting. There was discussion about noise pollution, the young family that lives across the street from the park. He was there and he talked about how he, you know, picks up glass every Saturday morning because there’s high schoolers in the park at night after dark. And he welcomed that. Wylie said she would have loved to have heard all that. She would have liked to have been informed enough in advance of the schedule to have gone. Rodgers said well, she wouldn’t know whether or not he was going to be there or not because they didn’t know whether or not. Wylie said she wanted to hear all that.

Wylie said there are actually two different discussions going on right now. They have a discussion about having the meetings and having the Facebook postings, which is what she’s been complaining about. And then about the discussion about the lights and other facilities. They have two different things going on right now. Rodgers is talking about what the plans are for the park and the lighting – (interrupting Wylie), Rodgers said and the ability to get community input – (continuing), Wylie said she’s talking about the way the whole thing was scheduled, and those are really two entirely different issues. Haven said procedural, absolutely. Wylie said she did not like the procedure.

Haven said so, let’s get back to the item that’s on the agenda, shall they? OK, do they or do they not want to know from the public what’s requested on this form? And if they don’t want to know it that way, what way do they want to know it? Because they’ve got a group of volunteers who work their tails off, OK, to bring some wonderful things to this town. They’ve also figured out how in the world to pay for it without raising taxes, OK. So those two things stand in front of them as an opportunity. So, they can say as a council, they can say, well, they don’t want free money and they don’t want to have amenities in their park, or they can let the public speak to that. OK, so there’s their choice. This is a public, they’re going public with that, all right? They can say it’s been done in a corner. It wasn’t done in a corner, but they can say it if they want to, or Casey can call it an end run. It wasn’t. This is a very open discussion, and public meetings, not official public meetings, but presentations, OK, so that people can learn, and they could give their feedback. Haven said Forte was looking at him funny. OK, this is to get public input, OK, purely and simply. It’ll be a mailer to every home in this town, there will be no doubt about what people think when they’re done with this, OK. He doesn’t know if they have a fear of that. He doesn’t have a fear of it, frankly. Haven wants to put this in front of the public. So that’s why it’s here. (Pointing to Smith), Haven said he suggested it; he agrees with Smith. They did it this way before, OK, so here it is. Have at it (unintelligible).

Wylie said she had a question for Mr. Ryan. To table, they’ve had a motion and a second. To table this, what has to be done. Ryan said a motion to table takes precedence. Wylie said because the only reason she’s saying this is because emotions are a little bit high and maybe it would be better to table it. Haven laughed and said his wasn’t, Wylie’s was. (Wylie looked at Haven.) Forte said Haven’s definitely was. Wylie said emotions are high for three of them anyway, four of them. Haven said they’ve been talking about this for a long time. Wylie said she’d like to make a motion to table this for another meeting when emotions are a little bit calmer, including herself, because she is – (interrupting Wylie), Haven said unbelievable, well, unbelievable. OK, go ahead. Second Forte.

Fuller asked if he could say something. Haven said please. Fuller said since he’s unemotional. Fuller said so, when this came up, he has no, he doesn’t have anything against the lighting per se. He thought there were certain issues about the lighting that needed to be discussed that aren’t going to come up in this survey. The one was Forte, this is her field, more expertise since she brought up terms Fuller had never even heard of about the type of lighting, when the lighting is going to be deployed, like he thinks during the Christmas program and other events like that, that’s great. He thinks it’s kind of glaring, him personally, at night, every night of the week. He just thinks as a starting point, he doesn’t have any problem with this. He does have a question about who’s going to get this. Is this one per household or what. Haven said one per household is planned. Fuller said because he and his wife don’t agree on almost anything. (Unintelligible crosstalk.)

Wylie said she made a motion to table, she’s sorry Fuller – (interrupting Wylie), Ryan said technically, he didn’t think there is supposed to be any discussion on a motion to table. He means, this isn’t the United States Senate, but, with all due respect, he doesn’t mean to denigrate Wylie, but considering what’s going on, but anyway, if you want to let Fuller speak, fine. Otherwise, it’s just up or down. If it passes by majority vote, then it would be tabled until the next meeting.

Wylie said she honestly thinks that those of them who are in favor of lights would benefit with the motion to table because like she said, there’s two different issues going on here, and right now, she’s still thinking about this whole end run, and she thinks she could think more about a survey if they waited for another meeting. Haven said Wylie moved accordingly, and Forte seconded it. There is a motion and second to table. Wylie asked if it was just a strict vote.

Haven asked for a roll call. Forte asked what they are voting for. Wylie said to table it to the next meeting.

DeLorge said she was going to do a roll call. Haven said for tabling. Ryan said please. Wylie said put to table.

Casey, Forte, Fuller, Lamphier, and Wylie voted yes.

Haven and Rodgers voted no.

[Motion carried.]

Wylie said so, it will be on our agenda for next meeting. Ok.

Agenda Item #12, Adjourn (Video time mark 1:25:50):

Haven said all right, he’ll entertain a motion to adjourn.

Forte made a motion to adjourn.

Casey said one thing. He’d like to point out that this is Fuller’s last meeting. Wylie and Haven said no, it’s not. Wylie said she asked him when she came in. Haven said the last meeting in October. Fuller asked Casey if he was trying to get rid of him. (Laughter.) Haven said thank him. (Fuller made an unintelligible comment.)

Haven said he would entertain a motion to adjourn. Forte made it. Haven asked for a second. Second Wylie.

Haven said there’s a motion and second and asked for a voice vote.

Motion to adjourn passed by unanimous voice vote.

Haven said motion carries. They are adjourned.

Resources:

• • Link to video recording here
  • 10-09-2023 City Council packet