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November 22, 2021, City Council Meeting

Note: links to the video recording and the council packet can be found at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted between brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.

Agenda item #1, Call to Order

The meeting was not formally called to order. Eric Haven welcomed everyone to the meeting.

Agenda item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:03):

Pledge said.

Agenda item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:00:20):

Eric Haven, Al Avery, Gary Casey, Bruce Fuller, Laura Rodgers, and Sue Wylie were present. Joe Luginski was absent.

Agenda item #4, Motion: Approval of Agenda (Video time mark 0:00:32):

Motion to approve the agenda as presented by Avery; second Wylie.

No discussion.

Motion to approve the agenda passed unanimously by voice vote.

Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:01:01):

Haven read the rules regarding public comments.

There were no public comments from the audience members present. Haven said that they’d received one public comment. Clerk Jennifer Speagle read the public comment from Chet Pardee.

Chet Pardee:

Pardee said his comments were addressed to the newest council members, Mr. Fuller and Ms. Rodgers. Welcome.

Pardee that he was sure that they recognized the city’s inability to maintain its sidewalks and streets. The city faces significant financial challenges without a plan. Council has borrowed from its water and sewer funds and has approved the current budget which takes the fund balance to its minimum level. The current budget has one-fifth of the capital expenses budgeted compared to the previous budget. Council has approved the budget with almost twice the amount for city hall furniture and city hall cosmetic fencing as is included for repairing sidewalks. The situation will worsen depending on the HDC’s (Historic District Commission) requirements for the city hall storage fencing design. It will be three years at a minimum since the city last repaired sidewalks. The mayor guessed several months ago that $100,000 may be required, and this was prior to identifying the need to repair and replace the seven brick paver aprons on Main Street.

There is $8,000 in the current budget. The city manager has not communicated the current inventory of sidewalk sections requiring repair. The forty sections of broken Miller Road sidewalk are proposed to be replaced with blacktop if sufficient parking revenue is available from the 2022-2023 budget and the city’s grant is approved to repair the west end of Miller Road.

Other than paid parking, the city has no plan to provide revenue to repair sidewalks and streets except for American Rescue Plan funds of $48,000 for 2021 communicated to be available this past August and an additional $48,000 for next year. An update and a plan to discuss priorities publicly are past due. The most recent Capital Improvement Plan includes projected expenses at double to triple the level of annual parking revenue.

As the newest council members, you are able to ask is this true, how did we get here, and what are the alternative solutions. Pardee encouraged them to meet with the city manager and city treasurer who understand and can provide answers.

Pardee asked them to please call if they would like any clarification of his comments. Pardee said that he attached the questions that he had hoped would be answered by the auditor in the November 8th council meeting. All of the questions are relevant, and most are not addressed directly.

Haven said that they aren’t required to comment on this because it’s public comment, so he would move on.

Haven asked if there were any other public comments at this time.

An unidentified man said that the streetlight has been out for over a month (unintelligible) at Church and Holcomb. It’s been dark. The streetlight has been out for a couple of months. Haven said that they would make note of it and it’s a DTE issue, probably. We have these periodically (unintelligible). Haven thanked the man for bringing it to their attention. Avery said it’s right by his house, it was out a couple of years ago for the longest time, and then they finally fixed it. It’s out again. Haven said it’s strange. Haven asked Jonathan Smith (city manager) what his experience has been with them [DTE] for responsiveness. Smith said they have in general been very responsive. There have been some that are problematic and that really need to be upgraded. Smith hasn’t found a great interest on DTE’s part to upgrade lights at their own expense, but they do replace the bulbs on pretty short notice. Smith always encourages residents to let him know of a burned-out bulb anywhere they see in the city because he can call and usually get them replaced within about four or five working days. Haven said that’s (unintelligible) contract with the city to do that. Smith agreed.

No other public comments.

Public comments were closed.

Agenda Item #6, FYI (Video time mark 0:06:08)

    • Clarkston Independence District Library Holiday Boutique and Book Sale (page 4/46 of the council packet)

Haven said that there are two items. One is the Holiday Boutique and Book Sale at the Clarkston Independence District Library. That’s a fund-raiser for the Friends of the Library. Haven used to be part of that organization and they do great work over there. Haven encouraged the public to be very supportive of this opportunity, and that is on December 4th from 10:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. If anyone would like to attend that, he would encourage them to do so.

Haven said that they didn’t have it on the agenda, but they have representatives from Team RUSH [Respect, Unity, Spirit, Heart – Clarkston High School robotics team] there tonight, and he bets it’s about the light parade. Haven asked who was going to be the spokesperson for this, and one person said he would. Haven asked for his name, and he said his name is John Muller and he is a third-year senior on Team RUSH. The next person said his name is Justin Rosenberg and he’s a fourth-year senior on Team RUSH. The last person said her name is Isabel and she’s also a fourth-year senior on Team RUSH.

Muller said that due to COVID, they have not been able to fund-raise as much as they have in the past years, along with this (unintelligible) has recently changed Worlds from Detroit all the way down to Houston, which has greatly increased their expenditures. They are trying to get all the money that they can in order to travel down to Houston to participate in Worlds. They are hoping to waive the banner fee for Team RUSH for the holiday parade. They can answer any questions that the council may have.

Haven asked what the banner fee is. Smith said that it’s $200. Speagle agreed and said it’s $200 for two weeks. Smith said that there is, as council knows and approved in the last meeting, a suspension of the banner program starting in January. In December, it’s still an approved program, so they can still do it, weather permitting, and this is the way that Smith would leave it. Smith said that as they vote on it, they have waived the fee in the past just to help out this organization.

Haven asked if they needed a motion. Avery said he would make the motion to waive the $200 fee; Casey second.

Haven asked if there was any discussion.

No discussion.

Haven, Avery, Casey, Fuller, Wylie, and Rodgers voted yes.

Team RUSH representatives thanked the council. Haven thanked Team RUSH for all they are doing. Wylie thanked them for putting the parade on. Casey thanked them for coming out. Haven said it was great to see them again.

Agenda Item #7, Sheriff Report (Video time mark 0:09:05; 5/46 of the council packet)

Haven said that the next thing on the agenda was the Sheriff’s report for October, and they have it in their packet. Haven said that Lieutenant Hill was there with a friend to answer any questions they may have about that.

Haven said that it looks like they are looking at about a 300% increase in calls for service between 2020 and 2021. Haven asked if that could be attributed to COVID versus not COVID. Lieutenant Hill said he would have to look at each one of those to tell Haven exactly, and he should also understand that traffic stops generate a call for service. Building checks generate a call for service. And different incidents. So, in the township as a whole, they’ve actually dropped in calls for service, but inside the City of the Village of Clarkston, it’s actually increased. Without looking exactly at each one of those and breaking it down, and that’s something he can do at the end of the year as well, is to look at exactly what those are, crime versus non-crime versus traffic stops and so forth.

Haven said that would be helpful. It is a significant difference. Lieutenant Hill said it is, and when they look at the arrests and actual incidents, they had a number of court-ordered arrests, a hit and run crash, Lieutenant Hill thought there was a couple of traffic offenses that included a drunk driving arrest that was made. (Unintelligible.)

Haven asked if anyone had any questions.

Avery said he thought it goes to what Haven said. Last year, it was COVID. There was nothing going on for about three months. Haven said that we may find that. Avery said if you compare it to 2019, it was probably more apples to apples. Lieutenant Hill said that’s correct and what he’s seeing. Their numbers for 2021 are really reflecting about there as their general whole, as about their 2019 numbers. What he likes to look at is not just calls for service as opposed to what those actual calls are, and whether or not they are able to solve those crimes, and whether or not those are actually crime calls, and so forth. He thought that generally, we are doing pretty decent.

City Attorney Tom Ryan said (unintelligible) on August 13th, misdemeanor arrest. September 11th, October 10th. That’s a lot of misdemeanor arrests. Lieutenant Hill said that those could be anything, and what he means is that those could be traffic-related when they are looking at those actual totals. Lieutenant Hill said he’s a numbers/stats kind of person and he does like looking at those, but we also have to take those with a grain of salt as to what they are. He wanted to double check. Ryan said that he hasn’t seen those kinds of numbers, and he knows that we have a larceny case pending now. Lieutenant Hill said they had a larceny case and an open malicious destruction of property in the bathroom, that’s still an open case. That’s not looking real good for solving that at this point, but again, that doesn’t mean that they don’t keep trying, that they don’t keep looking at that. Looking at those, those are mostly some type of traffic-related or general assault and battery cases, aggravated felony assault arrest. Lieutenant Hill said that could have been a couple of different things. One, that person was actually in the City of the Village of Clarkston at the time they got arrested, it doesn’t mean that they are even a resident, it doesn’t even mean that case even occurred in the City of the Village of Clarkston as opposed that was an arrest made somewhere in the City of the Village of Clarkston.

Ryan thanked Haven. Haven thanked Ryan.

Haven said that he guesses the point is, is there something that they need to be made aware of, are there some trends that they need to be aware of and so on. Lieutenant Hill can help them with that. Lieutenant Hill said absolutely, and right now, he thinks that they are looking pretty good stat-wise. He doesn’t see any significant areas that need to be addressed. Lieutenant Hill said those things that he likes to attribute, let’s say that they are looking at a number of larcenies from automobiles, or a number of people that had their garages broken into, or different cases like that, and those are the kind of trends that he likes – (Haven made an inaudible comment) – (inaudible) so they can do some very specific targeting, patrolling, or targeting investigations to solve those crimes, and right now, he’s not seeing that. Lieutenant Hill also pushes that information through the Sheriff’s office for those types of citizen warnings and community warnings other than their general keep your lights on, keep your doors locked. To be quite honest, the City of the Village of Clarkston and the township as a whole are doing very well.

Haven said great, we love it quiet here. Lieutenant Hill said he does too. Haven thanked Lieutenant Hill for coming, he appreciates it.

Haven asked Lieutenant Hill to tell them about his friend. Lieutenant Hill picked up a puppy and said he had Callie with him today. She is one of the three new therapy dogs for the Sheriff’s office. Lieutenant Hill is a temporary handler until January, so he’ll have to give her up in January, but Independence Township does have their own, (unintelligible) has a therapy dog, Independence or “Indie,” and he is assigned to the schools as a school resource officer, so you may see Indie around. You may see Callie around now and then, but not normally until about January or so. It looks like she’s going to the recruiter. (Someone asked an unintelligible question.) Lieutenant Hill said they do, she didn’t really care for the mesh, it took maybe a half-hour to get used to, but after that, she’s OK. Haven thanked Lieutenant Hill for bringing her, they enjoyed seeing her.

Agenda Item #8, City Manager Report (Video time mark 0:14:48)

    • City Manager Report (page 6/46 of the council packet):
    • Training for Newly Elected Officials, Michigan Municipal League (page 8/46 of the council packet)

Haven noted that the city manager’s report is in the packet. He asked if anyone had any questions for Smith or comments in general.

Smith said that one of the things in there is the DPW truck evaluation. Smith said that he’s sensitive to the comments that were made about the truck tires, and why didn’t he see that coming, are we doing some things to head off some of these expenses. So, this is a large study that will take some time. It’s going to be a couple months, but they’re working on an evaluation of their current vehicles. As council knows, we have a Ford 550, which is considered a medium-duty pickup truck with a box on the back, a dump truck, and then they have their big International Harvester truck, which is just massive. The city got a very good deal on this when it was purchased back in 2013-2014. Smith thought it was purchased in 2013 but was a 2014 model vehicle. Much like the front-end loader that they purchased through a grant, they got a really great deal on it when they purchased it back in the day. It was a great deal, there’s no denying that, but it was almost overkill for this small village. Smith said that they turned in (unintelligible), they turned in that massive Caterpillar for a (unintelligible) that they use absolutely every single day. That (unintelligible) unloader they used twice a year. So, they turned an unused asset into a daily asset that’s literally (unintelligible). Smith said that he sees that same thing happening on the truck. The truck is only used for snow plowing for four months out of the year. The smaller truck, the 550, is very capable of plowing roads. They use it mainly for parking lots, but there’s no reason it couldn’t become the big truck, if you will, and they get another truck that’s a smaller one along the lines of a 2500-pound (unintelligible) truck. So, instead of adding a massive International Harvester and a 5500, Smith is saying have a 5500 and a 2500, just downsize it. The other advantage to that is not only the cost of operation, the cost of maintenance, but you don’t have to have a CDL license to operate it. The big truck requires a CDL license, and they’re somewhat hamstrung in that only Jimi [Turner, DPW Supervisor] has a CDL license and can drive the big truck. Carson [Danis, DPW employee] can drive the small truck, what they call the small truck, the 5500, but if they made them both drivable, it would allow the two guys to kind of go their separate directions and do the multi-tasking a little bit better than they do it today.

Smith said it’s a big consideration, and he’s just kind of whetting their appetite tonight over the idea. There’s a lot more analysis that will go into this, and Smith will bring a whole proposal with the pros and cons and the financials. Of course, it will be important that they get a grant for this. Again, there are government grants, especially now with all these COVID grants out there. There’s a bunch of them out there for government operations, so it’s a perfect time to be looking at this.

It’s also a perfect time because the big truck is starting to need some maintenance. Maintenance on that big International Harvester isn’t like something that you take down to your corner gas station. If you take it to a service center, you’re not talking about $150 or $200 for repair. On that big truck, you usually start with $5,000 and go up. Last week, Turner worked on the brakes. He was able to get this massive drum brake, which is about this big in diameter (gesturing), to get that off and service the brake lines. Turner has a mechanical background. So, he was able to do that and probably saved $2,000 right on that one repair. Smith said that there are other things coming. When you see the underside of it, it’s literally rusting. It’s a seven-year-old truck, it’s used for salt distribution, and the day is coming that the pendulum will swing, and we will spend more money on maintenance than it’s worth.

Smith said that was a lot to throw at them. He will study this and come back. Smith thinks this is a good financial assessment for the city and it makes sense that they do this. Haven said he appreciates Smith’s comment in light of the tire discussion. Haven said (unintelligible) and what we should learn about it too, but anticipation is huge, of the future, and plan the maintenance accordingly as well. If Smith can educate them as they go along, it will help Smith as well.

Haven asked if there were any other questions on Smith’s report.

Fuller asked (unintelligible) if the 5500 and the 2500 truck, because he has no idea. Smith said those are the GVW ratings, and Ford, GM, and now Stellantis Ram trucks, all three of them offer 1500, which is the entry level, 2500, 3500, 4500, 5500 is the range. Smith used to work for Stellantis, so he’s familiar with the different GVW ratings. There are three companies that they could (unintelligible).

(Casey had an unintelligible discussion with Fuller.)

Haven asked if there were any other comments or questions from council.

There were none.

Haven asked if there were any comments or questions from the audience. Haven said if you don’t bring it [the council packet] or haven’t looked at it, you can see it right here (on screen). It’s up there, sort of.

There was no additional discussion.

Agenda Item #9, Motion: Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented (Video time mark 0:21:35):

    • 10-25-2021, Final Minutes (page 10/46 of the council packet)
    • 11-08-2021, Draft Minutes (page 12/46 of the council packet)
    • 10-22-2021, Treasurer’s Report (page 13/46 of the council packet)
    • 11-10-2021, Revenue and Expenditure Report, Period Ending 10-31-2021 (page 14/46 of the council packet)
    • Carlisle/Wortman, October invoices (page 20/46 of the council packet)

Haven said that this is the consent agenda which is a combination of the final minutes from 10-25, draft minutes from 11-08, and the treasurer’s report. They put those all together and approve them at the same time unless someone wants to pull something out of there and discuss it. Haven asked for a motion to accept the consent agenda as it has been given to them.

Motion by Wylie; second Fuller.

Avery asked about the Carlisle/Wortman bill. He asked Smith to explain because he was kind of confused. They charge us $1,500 a month as a monthly retainer, and they charge us for code enforcement, and Avery understands that’s a separate deal, a separate agreement that we made with them. But they also charged us for a Single-Family Residential Historic District memo and a Single-Family Site Plan Review Memo. Why wasn’t that included in the retainer? Smith said that those are two different arms of Carlisle/Wortman. The $1,500 is the Building Department. The two planner reviews that Avery saw listed below for $630, those are essentially things that the Planning Commission (PC) worked with Ben Carlisle on. So, the first $1,500 was Craig Strong of the Building Department; the second one is Ben Carlisle and the Planning Department. Two different arms of Carlisle/Wortman.

Avery asked about the invoice on 10-4-21 for $1,500 – they didn’t do any work for us for that month? Smith said that is a retainer fee just to use their services. Strong manages the Building Department and that’s what that goes towards. Avery said that’s where he’s confused. As a lawyer, if he charges a retainer, he works off the retainer before he starts billing. That’s part of the deal. If we pay the $1,500, we’re allowed to use up that $1,500 and over that they would charge us for. Avery said he would think they would send us a bill for what they did and using some of that retainer, but if that’s not the case, then – (interrupting Avery), Smith said that’s a flat fee that they charge every month and that covers Strong’s fees, it also covers Susan Weaver, who’s in the office in Springfield Township, so between the two of them, they are working on our behalf. Smith doesn’t have an accounting that would say of the $1,500, this month did they actually expend $1,200, $1,800, or what was their actual expenditure, but that is a flat rate, $1,500 a month. Avery said that he didn’t know if that’s something that maybe needs talking about. He’d be curious, but if Smith is comfortable with it, he guesses he’s fine with it. Smith said that when they first competitively bid this, they looked at what other firms would charge to run our Building Department, and they were much higher than this. They were like $2,500 or $3,000 a month. Avery said that maybe it’s the verbiage. To him, retainer means something different than a monthly administration fee. Retainer to him means like a lawyer does it. We’re paying $1,500, but we’re expecting something out of that every month and an invoice so that we can see what they did. But if it’s a flat fee, then just have them bill it out as a flat fee, administration fee. Smith said he would talk to Strong about that and see about getting it changed to clarify.

Haven said it’s only Building and has nothing to do with Planning, right? Smith said that’s correct; it’s just the Building Department operation. As Avery mentioned, there is another invoice for code enforcement, so that is a new operation, and this, unlike the other one which is a flat fee, this is billed on actual hours worked. She worked eight hours at $45/hour and that’s how that’s being done right now. Haven said that they actually approved her position in the budget based on this two day a week or one day a week kind of thing, there is an actual budget line item, right? Smith agreed. There is $6,000 in the budget for this year. Haven asked if he would use it as needed or not. Smith said as it’s needed.

Smith said he can have Stacey (Kingsbury) come in if they want to meet her. Haven said that would be good. Smith said that Kingsbury comes in every Tuesday, or every other Tuesday, depending on what workload she anticipates. She drives around the city very slowly. She drives by the houses very slowly, looking up the driveways for infractions. She makes note of them and comes back to the office to write up the letters if one is needed. Then she writes it under her signature, a letter to the homeowner, and she gets the address and information from Smith, and lets them know that there is an infraction that needs to be corrected. They have had a very good response rate from those letters. Smith thinks she’s issued eight or nine letters at this point, but almost all of them immediately come in line. They have one case going to the ZBA (Zoning Board of Appeals) tomorrow night where the homeowner is asking for a variance to keep a trailer in his driveway, but otherwise, that’s not allowed. You can keep a trailer in the driveway for two weeks.

Smith said that Kingsbury is extremely knowledgeable about all the ordinances, and she has done a phenomenal job. She has the right kind of personality for this job. She doesn’t mind if a customer or a resident comes out and talks to her. She’s very capable of being respectful and polite and just explaining the facts to them and not letting it elevate. Kingsbury has a good handle on that.

Smith said that right now, they should be easily under that $6,000. She started out with miscellaneous containment work, if you will, because they haven’t really enforced ordinances in earnest for a few years now. So, it took her a while to kind of get things up to speed, but now they anticipate her hours falling off because she’s just keeping the squirrel cage moving. She doesn’t have to have a lot of effort to keep it going.

Haven asked if there were any other questions or comments about the consent agenda.

There was no additional discussion.

Motion to accept the consent agenda as presented passed unanimously by voice vote.

Agenda Item #10, Old Business:

Item 10a – Discussion: Parking Revenue Update; Parking Update for September and October 2021 (Video time mark 0:29:10)

    • Parking Fees & Parking Tickets (page 23/46 of the council packet)

Haven said that there is a chart in there from Speagle as a reference. Speagle said it was a reference and they could ask any questions. Speagle said they like to do this every month, but with the election and how busy the last couple of months have been, they missed updating the council in September and October.

Smith said that he would comment. The net revenue, the line in the middle, showing about an average of $5,000, $5,500, a month is what he looks for. That is the net after paying our costs out, so if they have paper costs, what have you, or their enforcement officers, they have to pay their salaries. That’s net of all those expenses. Smith said that is a little shy of what they were doing the last year, pre-COVID, it was more in the neighborhood of $7,000 to $7,500. Smith thinks that’s still a reflection of the fact that people are still being conservative about going out to dinner or just going out at all. Smith said it’s a little conservative, but of course $5,000 a month in revenue for the city is not a bad thing. This goes towards our roads, so to date, since they restarted parking, they have about $21,000 in their account. That’s only four months into the year, so that’s a good thing.

Haven asked if there were any other comments or questions.

There were none.

Agenda Item #11, New Business

Item 11a – Motion: Mayor Pro Tem Appointment (Video time mark 0:31:05)

    • Motion – Mayor Pro Tem Appointment (page 24/46 of the council packet)

Haven said this was a motion for the Mayor Pro Tem appointment, and this is something that is done every election. Haven read from the motion. Haven said he talked with Wylie, and he understands that she continues to have this interest in the job. Haven thought this was number three, and Wylie said she believes so. (Unintelligible.)

Haven said he would like to continue to have Wylie be there backing him up, so he will nominate Wylie and asked for a second; second Avery.

Haven asked if there was any discussion. He thought that Wylie had to recuse herself. Wylie said she wondered and agreed. Haven thought that would be a little tacky. Ryan said she can, but she shouldn’t.

No discussion.

Avery, Fuller, Casey, Rodgers, and Haven voted yes. Wylie abstained.

Haven congratulated Wylie. Wylie thanked Haven.

Speagle asked if Wylie would mind if she swore Wylie in. Haven said that she had to stand and raise her hand.

Speagle administered the following oath: “I, Sue Wylie, do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of this State, and I will faithfully perform the duties of the office of Mayor Pro Tem in and for the City of the Village of Clarkston, County of Oakland, and the State of Michigan, according to the best of my ability, so help me God.”

(Applause.)

Haven said he feels so much better. (Wylie’s comment was unintelligible.)

Item 11b – Discussion: Agenda Item Request; Item Request by Christopher Moore Regarding HDC (Historic District Commission) Updates and Reports (Video time mark 0:33:53)

    • City Council Agenda Item Request from Christopher Moore, Request for Monthly Standing Commission Report on Current Minutes, Applications, Certificates of Appropriateness, Notices to Proceed, Denials, Update on Current Finances, and Legal Reports (page 25/46 of the council packet)

Haven said this is a formal request made by Mr. Christopher Moore. Specifically here, it’s stated fairly succinctly, Moore is requesting a standing [Historic District] Commission report on current minutes, and this is for the HDC (Historic District Commission) only, Haven thought. (Haven confirmed that was the case.) Continuing, Haven stated this was for a standing Commission report on current minutes, applications, certificates of appropriateness, notices to proceed, denials, updates on current finances, and legal reports. Moore said that this should be a standing item at every city council meeting, though Moore said that one report per month is adequate and two would not be necessary.

Haven said that’s Moore’s request. It is on the agenda as a discussion item. Haven said quite frankly, he feels fairly positive about what Moore is suggesting. Haven thinks maybe he’s been a little bit restrictive in it in terms of appearances before them in respect to just isolating the HDC. Haven thinks it would be a great idea for Planning to be there as well, but once a month is a bit much. Haven said he’s talked about this in the past with Smith and was going to suggest maybe having this a couple times a year, having their HDC present to them about what’s going on, in sort of a big general tenor of what’s going on, and allow the council to ask questions, and then the PC would do the same. He thinks it’s informative to council and makes a better council (unintelligible). That’s just his input for the discussion. Moore has asked for at least once a month. Haven asked what the others thought.

Wylie did a little bit of research and looked at some communities in the area. She noticed that some communities have what they call a liaison. In some communities, every person on council has a liaison with their historic district, their planning commission, the ZBA, some other committees, and then they report back to the city council. Technically, the council does have someone at Planning – that’s her. Haven agreed. Wylie said that she just doesn’t report regularly but that could be changed.

Smith said that Casey is on the ZBA. Wylie agreed and said that the HDC is the major (unintelligible). Smith said it wouldn’t necessarily have to be a member of the HDC; it could just be somebody that attends the HDC zoom calls. Wylie agreed, and said she thinks that’s what the Village of Holly has. They refer to them as liaisons, and she doesn’t think that those liaisons are actually members of the boards or the commissions. They just go to the meetings and report back. It’s a two-way street. They gave their perspective in the city council to that board and came back to council and reported what was going on at the board or commission.

Avery said that Moore isn’t there tonight to flesh out his ideas. Avery said that as a council member, they really don’t have much sway with the HDC. They run their own ship, they have different rules and regulations they go by, and the council doesn’t have any influence on that. That being said, when there are issues, it would be nice to get a heads up that there are issues with certain things going on. For instance, when Moore came in here, he started telling the council about all of the issues he’s having. Not sitting in on the HDC meetings, Avery doesn’t know what’s going on, and he doesn’t understand (unintelligible). So that makes it a little awkward sitting here as a council member sometimes if someone is coming in and has an issue. He doesn’t know if he needs a monthly breakdown that someone is going to change their shutters, or their windows are going to be changed. He thinks they can handle that without an issue. But more from the city liability or city problems that might come before the council, it would be nice to have something, some sort of heads up, even if it’s forwarded, to give them an idea what issues are pending, if there’s something where there’s some friction with certain applicants, that would be helpful to him.

Wylie asked if it was a requirement that council have a (unintelligible) on ZBA? Haven said yes, but not on HDC. Wylie wondered where it came from, whether there’s a legal reason. Ryan said the statute, Michigan statute, zoning and planning require it. Wylie said that makes sense.

Ryan said that they don’t have any ZBA cases, but for instance, the PC, Rich (Little, PC Chair) has done a great job of being here, there are excellent minutes, and they have Wylie and Luginski on the PC. Ryan said that the HDC has excellent minutes. Ryan asked if the council receives a copy of the minutes. Wylie said not typically. Ryan said they should. Avery said you can sign up on the website. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Ryan said there are only two litigation matters pending on the HDC, the bills are submitted every month and the information is right there. Ryan thinks that the information is available; it’s just a question of getting it to council. If they wanted, they could have the chairperson come in quarterly or twice a year, but they have actual minutes of the HDC and the PC, so there’s no reason why the council shouldn’t have it.

Avery said specific to Moore, he’s read the minutes, taking them apart and digesting them, and it didn’t appear to him that there was that kind of an issue going on until there was an issue going on, until Moore was in front of them. Ryan said that there are a couple of those things. 35 West Madison [35 Madison Court?] just showed up, so as far as that goes, and then the HDC came in there two meetings ago to talk about all that stuff. Ryan is not saying don’t have them in here, but he thinks the information is there, it’s just a question of getting it to the council. And then if you want to have the chairpeople come in quarterly or twice a year, whatever, that’s certainly within their purview. Haven said they can put it in the calendar, but Ryan is right, Little has been doing a great job. He’s here almost every meeting (unintelligible).

Haven said that the HDC might want to come in there and brag, they got a 95% approval rating from what he understands. Jim [Meloche, HDC Chairman] is in the back row and is the chair of the HDC.

Haven asked what their druthers were, should they just put it on the calendar, have a motion, what’s the spirit of council? Avery said at least quarterly, once every three months. Haven said at least quarterly. Avery said they could see how it goes, maybe after a year of them coming in (unintelligible). Haven said gotcha. Avery said then maybe they could say every six months.

Haven asked if Meloche had any comment. Meloche said he wondered why they don’t just try it. He thinks it’s a good idea, but he doesn’t like Wylie’s idea of having a liaison person, having somebody listening to them and going and talking to the council about what they saw and heard. It’s much better with face-to-face, didn’t she think? Wylie agreed. Meloche said it’s a two-way street. They can increase their visibility with council, and they can come away knowing more about what they do. Haven agreed.

Smith said to Wylie’s point about it being a two-way street going the other way, Meloche attending this meeting is very helpful, so Meloche hears the dialogue. Smith said that is the other aspect of this that would be very helpful. In effect, Meloche is the liaison. Meloche could take things that he hears at council meetings and take it back to the Commission. Meloche agreed.

Fuller asked if these would all occur on one night. Wylie said they would be staggered.

Haven said that they’ve talked about this in generalities but really never got around to scheduling it, so they could schedule a rotation. Smith agreed. Haven said it could be at a non-difficult time for the HDC because they have a lot of work to do. They work really hard.

Little said that there’s a little bit of difference with the PC because the council has to approve everything that they do. Little is automatically in front of the council. He’s probably been in front of the council forty times maybe with recommendations to council. The PC isn’t doing anything that the council doesn’t automatically have to approve, so Little doesn’t know that the council would need a separate time for the PC to come in. Little thinks that the council is seeing it all happen right in front of them. Haven said that was a good point.

Haven said maybe they could just do the HDC for now. ZBA is really a unique situation. Smith said he wasn’t aware that they meet. Haven said very seldom do they meet. Smith agreed.

Wylie said that maybe the liaison – Haven said it was Casey – could tell them what’s going on. Smith said for Fuller’s and Rodgers’ benefit, on the website, and Ryan has alluded to it, the minutes are on it, they can scroll down to the meetings and agendas, and scroll down and look what’s coming up on the meeting. If they open up the actual meeting, they can see the agenda. They try to post agendas two or three days in advance. Speagle is pretty good about getting those to them well in advance. So, if there was some hot topic and they wanted to see what’s going on and want to sit in on that meeting, they are always welcome. They are public meetings; they are always welcome to sit in on the meeting.

Haven said it’s proactive too. It’s a push system, it’s not a passive system. You can sign up and have emails sent to you. Haven said that’s what he does. Smith said that’s what Avery spoke of. There is a way in the system where you can go in and say that you want to be notified whenever a new agenda is posted. There are things you can do that way. It will just email you a notice.

Haven said it was a good discussion.

Item 11c – Discussion: Residential Project Approval Flowchart (Video time mark 0:44:47)

    • Project Approval Flowchart (page 26/46 of the council packet)

Haven said that they’ve talked about this in the past, and he would be happy to share it with someone who would like to see it. Handing an audience member his chart, Haven said that they could pass it around perhaps and look at it because they might be interested in this.

Haven said he thought they were already working on the ordinance that is part and parcel of this, which is a brilliant illustration and what they are going to be putting into the ordinance. Haven asked Little if that was correct. Little said yes, the public hearing will be held on December 6th. Little said that what he’d like to do is put this with the ordinance language on that December 6th public hearing if possible.

Haven asked Little if that has been announced. Little said it would be, probably in the next day or so; he hasn’t posted it. Haven said OK; it’s coming pretty quick. Little said it has to be posted by Wednesday, obviously. Haven said he knows that Little is not behind. They want to get this going before the end of the year. Little agreed. Haven said he appreciates that.

Smith said that the chart assumes that the public hearing goes through. They are assuming that the PC steps away from single-family residential approvals and (unintelligible). Smith said that this flowchart makes that assumption.

Smith said that there are four steps identified. It starts out with the Building Department and some basic questions. One of the major questions that residents have when they come into the city, I want to build a garage, or rebuild a garage, what steps do I have to go through. So, this tells them up front what they need to do. The main goal of this flowchart is that there are no crisscrossing lines. To be honest, in the past, there were lines that crossed over each other. There were some loopbacks where if you got down this far and it didn’t get approved, you had to go back up, and everybody hates that because there could be money involved. You get down to this, and you’ve already paid architects.

Smith said they hate to do that, and that’s why they start up at the top with Step One. They say just submit a building permit application; you don’t have to give them your construction drawings. They know how the planning process goes. You start off with just general discussions with an architect or builder, and then the further you get down the path, the more and more locked in you get. It’s more and more difficult to make changes and more costly to make changes. This flowchart accounts for all that.

Smith said they start out at a very high level, do you need a variance. In Step One, they are kind of getting to the question will your property support such a project. If not, you might need a variance. And then you go to Step Two, which is the variance, the ZBA process. If you don’t need a variance, if it falls within the current building code, you can skip right over Step Two and go to Step Three, and the first question there is are you in the historic district. If yes, then you need to go through their work permit application process. If no, you’re not in the HDC, you can skip Step Three altogether and go to Step Four, and this is probably the most important step. This is where you actually have to submit construction drawings. Strong needs to see the construction drawings and pore over the details. Do you have a header over that window? Do you have enough supports in the wall? What’s the size of the concrete footing that’s going to hold this up? Strong goes through all those kinds of details in giving a final approval.

Smith said that the last comment he wants to make about this is that it is kept at a very high level. Bill Basinger, love the guy, he’s just been a gem for the city, he came up with a different flowchart, and his flowchart was more legal based. It was dead-on accurate. Smith said that he loves Basinger, and he loves the commitment Basinger has to the city and all his contributions, but Smith thought they needed something that was a little bit more, he doesn’t want to call it Dick and Jane, but it’s kind of a high level drawing that just shows you the high steps so that their customers, their residents, don’t have to be thinking about the legal jargon. Just very high level. So, does this cover every possible scenario? Not necessarily. It’s just intended to get you directionally down the path and when a resident says do I need to go to HDC? Do I need to go the ZBA? This flowchart kind of addresses that.

Smith said that Little said that they are going to have these public hearings to talk about whether or not they should in fact remove the PC from the approval process and just let the Building Department handle it. Ninety-five percent of the other cities initially do this, just let their Building Department check the setbacks, the roof lines and all those kinds of things.

Smith said that after it is approved, this flowchart can be launched and put on their website the very next day. Smith doesn’t have it on there just yet because they need to know whether or not that ordinance change will take effect.

Haven asked if there were two public hearings or one. Little said one public hearing and two readings with city council. Little told Haven to keep in mind that the PC is still included in every other site plan review. Ryan said that this is for single-family residences. Little agreed. Ryan repeated that it was for single-family residential only, so this doesn’t talk about apartment buildings, offices, restaurants, commercial; this is just single-family residential. Little agreed. Avery said it should probably say that on the document. Smith said he would change the heading. Where it says residential, he will change it to single-family residential. Little agreed. Smith said that’s probably 90% of their building permits.

Haven said they should post it online for sure but also in the offices because it gives people a clear view. Haven thought this would avoid some of the conflicts they’ve had in the past. Smith agreed. Haven said it was a good tool. Smith said that there have been some hard feelings from people who have gone through the whole construction process and had these loopbacks that he talked about. They really, sincerely want to fix that. Smith said that they hope this chart does that. This was a combination; it wasn’t just Smith doing this. This is a combination of the PC, the HDC, Ryan was involved, the ZBA, Basinger, they had a good procession of people from the city involved in putting this together.

Haven asked if there were any comments or questions. They will be able to start this with public hearings and two readings and so on.

There was no additional discussion.

Item 11d – Motion: Policies and Procedures Manual Revisions (Video time mark 0:52:28)

    • Motion – Policies and Procedures Manual Revisions (page 27/46 of the council packet)
    • Draft, Policies and Procedures Manual (page 28/46 of the council packet)

Haven said that all seventeen pages are in the packet. There are just a few little things that are being discussed there as far as amendments are concerned.

Smith said that they are highlighted, and he can go through them real quick. Haven agreed.

Smith said on the cover page of the policy and procedures manual, it just lists the current council. There are no changes until they get down to office hours. It’s been a while since they’ve updated this, and they’ve changed the office hours to Monday through Thursday as a cost savings, so that is now reflected in this chart. The office hours are Monday through Thursday. DPW hours are still Monday through Friday. They’re changing this to reflect that. And the other one is holidays. June 19th is a new federal holiday, and that was accepted by the State of Michigan, which in turn was accepted by Oakland County, and they followed suit, so that is just recognition of that new holiday.

Haven said they are all pretty straightforward changes, and he would entertain a motion to adopt the resolution. Casey said it was a motion.

Wylie said that she would move for the resolution for the revisions of the city policy and procedures manual; second Casey.

No discussion.

Rodgers, Avery, Haven, Casey, Wylie, and Fuller voted yes.

Item 11e – 2022 City Council Meeting Schedule (Video time mark 0:54:54)

    • Motion – 2022 City Council Meeting Schedule (page 45/46 of the council packet)
    • Council Meeting Dates for 2022 (page 46/46 of the council packet)

Haven said this had to do with their calendar for 2022, next year. It’s on the same format, the second and fourth Mondays, so there is no change to the way they’ve been operating.

Motion to adopt the meeting schedule by Rodgers; second Fuller.

Avery asked if they were actually going to be meeting on the 26th [of December]. Haven said he understands. Speagle told Haven that typically, they move on the first meeting of December to decide whether they are going to come back again after Christmas.

Haven asked Ryan about the requirement that they have twenty-four meetings a year. Ryan agreed. Haven said that they opt out every year and only have twenty-three, that’s not a problem? Ryan said it wasn’t, unless they want to be there the day after Christmas. Haven said no, he didn’t want to be, he just thought by Charter they were required to be there the day after Christmas.

Wylie asked if the special meetings counted. Ryan said they do, they always have their fair share of meetings. Haven said OK. Haven said that there’s a motion and a second and two people that don’t want to go to a meeting on the last Monday of the month of December. Given that, without any further discussion, it’s a motion, and Haven asked if they could do a voice vote. Ryan said they could.

Motion passed unanimously by voice vote.

[See Clarkston Secrets comment below.]

Agenda Item #12, Adjourn (Video time mark 0:56:49):

Motion by Avery; second Wylie.

No discussion.

Motion to adjourn by unanimous voice vote.

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