August 22, 2022, City Council Meeting

Introduction:

Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them. Mayor Eric Haven has also cut people off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act).

If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but your comments were cut short by the mayor, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.

Links to the video recording and the council packet can be found at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted between brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.

Agenda Item #1, Call to Order:

The meeting was not formally called to order.

Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:05):

Pledge said.

Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:00:22):

Eric Haven, Al Avery, Gary Casey, Bruce Fuller, Laura Rodgers, and Sue Wylie were present; Joe Luginski was absent.

Agenda Item #4, Motion: Approval of Agenda (Video time mark 0:00:37):

Motion to approve the agenda by Wylie; second Rodgers.

No discussion.

Motion adopted by unanimous voice vote.

Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:00:59):

Haven read the rules for public comment.

Scott Meyland:

Meyland provided his address. He said he had two quick points that he wanted to mention. He knows in the weekly communication from Jonathan [Smith, city manager] the public is always encouraged to attend and participate in the council meetings, and he thinks that’s a great thing. He came to the special meeting last Wednesday, and he understands that it was a closed, went into closed session fairly soon after it started. However, after the closed session ended, the public came in, there was no discussion, there was a motion that passed, and then the only comment that was made was wasn’t that [unintelligible] or something like that. And then the meeting was adjourned. Meyland said that his comment is that he didn’t feel encouraged as a participant in that meeting, so that’s just one thing he wanted to share.

The other thing he wanted to share, he knows that there are several items on the agenda tonight, but one of them is associated with the Main Street Oakland County program. He’s just a little bit confused as to why there seems to be so much consternation about accepting this resource that’s available from our county to help not only our businesses, but just our community in general.

Haven said that they would address that when they get to it on the agenda, thank you, (crosstalk between Haven and Meyland) and you’ll have an opportunity to at point. Meyland said OK, he just wanted to share those two things. He appreciates what they do, and he wanted to say thank you for that.

Haven asked Tom Ryan [city attorney] to just give a little response to Meyland relative to the way we closed the special meeting relative to going into closed session and coming out of closed session and the motion for adjourning, the propriety of that.

Ryan said that (unintelligible) public comment, but unfortunately for Mr. Meyland, the public comment was on the agenda, it was right after the roll call, and he didn’t think Meyland was there at that time, so there was a point – (interrupting Ryan), Meyland said he was he wasn’t, he arrived after it went into closed session. Ryan said OK. Meyland said that wasn’t the issue so much. Ryan said OK, so there was a public comment section.

Haven asked if anyone else had a public comment.

Chet Pardee:

Good evening.

The current budget was presented in the May 23^rd public hearing. Several things are impacting the City’s budget performance beside new sweeper brushes and the water heater failure.

The budget assumed revenue from the parking fund which has been lower than expected. The Hubbell, Roth and Clark [the city’s contract engineering firm] quarterly invoices for April, May, and June totaling $9,700 were approved in last meeting’s consent agenda and will be applied to last year’s financials. This will impact the current budget’s assumed fund balance. The July 1, 2022, fund balance will be confirmed in December when the audit results are presented, halfway through the budget year.

The finance committee met June 8^th without council members Joe Luginski and Al Avery and decided millage, that could have replaced the recently expired bond issue, would not be pursued on the November ballot. Additional millage funds for street and sidewalk repair could be sought in November 2023 to provide additional revenue beginning in July 2024. 

In spite of the August 8^th report showing the street condition PASER [Pavement Surface and Evaluation Rating] numbers declining from 4.2 to 3.4, 2017 to 2022, and 11 of our 27 streets currently rated “poor” in that PASER examination, funds for sidewalk and street repairs are not planned to be available until the 2024-25 budget, more than two years away.

Depot lot paid parking was intended to provide revenue for this budget year. The Planning Commission is currently developing a sub-committee.  This same Planning Commission has been asked to examine a raised walkway for Depot Park estimated at $450,000 in the city’s Capital Improvement Plan. How are the city’s priorities being determined?

The city should be hearing shortly from MDOT [Michigan Department of Transportation] on the grant request to repair the west end of Miller Road which, if granted, would cost the city $72,000 not available in the city’s budget.

Additional legal costs will come with the appeal of the Clarkston Cares 2022 group requesting village marijuana business be approved on November’s ballot. Legal costs will come from the city’s filing in district court related to North Main code violations since it’s past the August 15^th deadline.

Given the above, council should ask for a financial update in September on the accuracy of the budget assumptions, particularly since the costs for repairing the seven paver aprons may be clearer after tomorrow’s meeting (unintelligible).

Haven thanked Pardee. Pardee said he would take questions. Haven asked if anyone had any questions for Pardee.

There were no questions. Pardee thanked the council. Haven said he always appreciates Pardee’s review. He does a good, thorough job of thinking things through that are going on.

Haven asked if there were any other public comments.

No other public comments.

Public comments were closed.

Agenda Item #6, FYI (Video time mark 0:07:19):

Haven said he didn’t have any announcements to make tonight and asked if anyone in the audience would like to make one that might not otherwise be on the agenda.

No comment from the audience.

Agenda Item #7, Sheriff Report for July 2022 (Video time mark 0:07:30; page 3/33 of the council packet):

Haven said that Sergeant [Charlie] Young is here in the back. You have that and the council has that in the packet, and it’s available online as well. It looks like 2022 is considerably under 2021 relative to calls for service. Haven asked Sergeant Young how he would interpret that. It’s awfully good news, and Haven wonders what’s going on.

Sergeant Young said that he knows that after looking at the report, traffic enforcement seems to be picking up, but as far as people calling for service, he thinks that just varies month to month and year to year. He’s looked at the arrests as well, and in reviewing those, the misdemeanor arrests were mostly traffic violations. The felony arrest was a traffic stop that resulted in someone having a felony warrant and they were turned over to the Waterford PD [Police Department] for a crime that was committed there.

Haven asked if anyone else had any thoughts or comments relative to our Sherriff’s Department report.

Pardee said that he’s noticed that there are more efforts by deputies on Miller Road recently. Sergeant Young agreed. Pardee said he thinks that’s a good thing.

Haven asked if Sergeant Young is here twice a month or once a month now. Sergeant Young said when the Sheriff report comes out. Haven said OK and asked if that’s what drives the timing of this. Sergeant Young agreed. Smith said that it’s always the second meeting. Haven said OK.

Haven said from the audience standpoint, this is a good time if they want to interact with the Sheriff’s Department relative to your experience and your neighbors and so on it’s a good time (unintelligible) Sergeant Young know what you feel from your own neighborhood.

Haven asked if anyone had any thoughts about that. Things are quiet and peaceful in Clarkston. That’s the way we like to keep it.

No comments.

Haven thanked Sergeant Young.

Agenda Item #8, Discussion: Parking Revenue July 2022 (Video time mark 0:09:25, page 4/33 of the council packet):

Haven said that the next discussion on the agenda is a discussion of the parking revenue. Again, we have this in our packet. Pardee alluded to it. Looks like we’re at $23,033.67 through July. These are monies that can be put toward road improvements as Pardee had suggested earlier and will be in a timely manner.

Haven asked if there were any thoughts or comments about parking fees and parking tickets revenue.

Pardee said that the normal amount in a budget year is $80-$90,000 net, which would mean a month would be $7-$8,000. We’re considerably lower than that. The other thing that Pardee saw looking at the financial document was that the budget was built on $55,000 being transferred from the parking fund, and he’s wondering is that money in the parking fund. Smith said as of today, it’s not. Pardee said it’s not today. Smith said not today. Pardee thanked Smith.

Haven asked if there were any other thoughts or comments. We have a revenue stream from our parking, our Washington and Main parking lot. That’s what we’re talking about here, and as Pardee also alluded in his comments, the Planning Commission is putting together a parking committee to address (unintelligible) we should increase that capacity by adding the Depot lot to it. So that’s going on simultaneously.

Wylie said that the Planning Commission is also interested in looking for people who are interested in being on the parking committee, so if you have any interest, you can talk to her about it. Derek Werner is chair. She didn’t see anybody else here. Haven asked Wylie if she was going to be on it, and she said no (unintelligible). Haven said that there’s two that he’s heard so far. Wylie said OK. She turned in the name of someone who expressed an interest. You can talk to Wylie, you can talk to Haven, you can talk to Smith, Werner. Haven said OK, thanks, that’s all for the parking report.

Agenda Item #9, City Manager Report (Video time mark 0:11:55; page 5/33 of the council packet):

Haven said again, they have that in their packet. The paragraphs here are relative to the MML [Michigan Municipal League] conference in October. That’s upcoming. And council members can consider going to that, work with Smith on that if you’d like to go. Those are always very insightful.

The Main Street paver driveways on August 23^rd. Meeting will be between Smith and Matt Slicker, our new representative from Hubbell, Roth & Clark, our engineering firm to plan those future events.

The plans for Rudy’s will be reviewed by the Planning Commission and the HDC [Historic District Commission] in September. Haven asked Jim [Meloche, HDC chair] what the date of that meeting is. Meloche said it’s always the second Tuesday on the calendar. Smith said the 13^th. Meloche agreed. Haven said Tuesday, the 13^th. Meloche said it’s his birthday. (Laughter.)

Haven said the little libraries, and he didn’t want to put Julie [Meredith, Clarkston Independence District Library Director] on the spot just to comment a bit on the little libraries. We have two of them, right, one here in Depot Park? Meredith agreed (unintelligible). Meredith said that the Girl Scouts started them several years ago and offered assistance at that time (unintelligible), but we knew they might grow up and move on to other projects, so we offered up again (unintelligible) need some help with the little free libraries, we would be happy to do that (unintelligible). We are thinking about adding some additional little free libraries around town, so we thought (unintelligible). Haven said so Meredith will work on the collection part, the book collection. Meredith agreed. Haven said that DPW [Department of Public Works] will work on keeping them spruced up and so on. They are a nice asset. Meredith (unintelligible) need a little freshening up. Haven said so probably people can suggest to you the types of titles they would like to see (unintelligible)? Meredith said that she is sure they would have no trouble (unintelligible) to put in there. Haven said Thomas the Train is one that he would like to see. (Meredith made an unintelligible comment. Laughter.) Haven said it’s very popular he understands. Meredith agreed.

Wylie asked if it was still OK for people to drop books off there? That’s where she thought all the books were coming from. Meredith said yes and no. Sometimes people come in and drop their books, sometimes they take a book and leave a book, the idea is that you take a book, leave a book, but sometimes people just take a book and that’s OK too. They get so many donations at the library. They don’t like sharing the donations that they get in because they have book sales, obviously. They get hundreds and hundreds of donations every week, so they are more than happy to assist by keeping those stocked. And we are also thinking of (unintelligible) managing all the little (unintelligible) rotate the books (unintelligible) so that the little free library that’s nearest you, the books will change from time to time. Wylie thanked Meredith. Haven said it was very nice.

Haven asked if there were any thoughts about additional free libraries (unintelligible). Meredith said that these were the first ones. Haven said he knows, and they were initiated by the Girl Scouts, and they grew up. Meredith said they’ve done a lovely job with it, but she thinks they’ve gone on to other projects. They are happy to pick up (unintelligible). Haven said that is great.

Haven said that the final item on Smith’s report is the status of the EV [electric vehicle] charger stations. Haven asked Smith if he wanted to elucidate that a little bit relative to Bowman [Chevrolet] and GM [General Motors] and what’s going on there. Smith said Bowman Chevrolet approached us and said that they have some charging stations that General Motors is making available free of charge and asked if we would like them installed in our community. Smith said he said well actually, ironically, we already have a discussion underway with State Electric to do the same thing. They too are willing to provide the units free of charge at their cost. This would come from General Motors. So, Smith approached both parties, both General Motors and State Electric, and said could we work out a deal together, where General Motors provides the units and State Electric does the installation. That’s the path we’re on right now. We’re trying to work through some refinements to the legal agreement, but we’re hopeful to get this started here in the next couple of weeks. They are looking at three locations in Clarkston, and each one is a double station. One pole, two units. So, there would be one in the Depot lot out here, one in the Washington and Main lot in town, and we’re also looking at, Eric, put you on the spot, Eric Lines [Union Joints] (laughter), put it next to Honcho there. There’s a power pole right there. Maybe in the next couple of days, Smith and Lines can meet to see if it’s feasible to put the unit there as well, so we have one there on that side of the street as well. Lines agreed. Haven said Lines could charge his Tesla there. Smith said it’s moving along; it’s just taking a long time. The insertion of the General Motors change, all good, kind of set us back a little. Haven agreed.

Wylie asked if they are still talking about the same type of unit that was presented to us? Smith said yes, the same type of unit. It’s not the super-fast charger that will charge in 20 minutes. This is 2–3-hour charging time. So, if you go to dinner, you can get most of your car charged.

Rodgers said that they talked about the attachment isn’t the same for every type, so is it the same as what they were talking about the last meeting that’s not universal. Smith said it’s not universal. So, General Motors chargers are the exact same ones that are being proposed by State Electric. They satisfy about 85% of the cars. The thought is that those other 15% of car owners probably have an adapter already in their glove compartment or something because there is an adapter that you just have to put on the end of the cable, and it will work. So, yes, that’s the plan.

Wylie thanked Smith.

Haven said that’s the end of Smith’s report and asked if there are any other thoughts or comments about any of those items.

Fuller said he had a question for Smith. He’s recently been looking at these paver aprons and at these blocks that comprise them. It just seems to him like they deteriorate at a very rapid rate. He’s seen them, and other people, he’s seen them at some homes where they’ll have driveways made out of them and they last for years. Some of them are approaches to say an apartment building that has four units, and there’s maybe five cars that are using it. Is there some reason, were they installed improperly, or is just something wrong with them that they’re deteriorating at such a rapid rate. Smith said that the apartment building on Main Street, they did do a similar renovation to their pavers about three, maybe four years ago. So, they have gone through a similar renovation where they plucked out the bad ones and put in new ones. Because they used the same pavers we did. But there’s no question that all of our pavers are subjected to commercial traffic. Trucks in certain driveways, Rudy’s, whatnot, trucks going on there that could break them down a little sooner than just a residential homeowner’s might be subjected to. So, Smith thinks that’s contributing to it. They are the same exact pavers that the apartment building, for example, used in their parking area, and they look really nice, but Smith is told they did go through a renovation to keep them looking that way. Fuller said the city doesn’t run plows over them or anything like that. Smith said well, we do, we actually have to, but on those driveways we typically wouldn’t use the big truck. It would be the smaller truck, so it’s not like those would be subjected to the big International truck that’s really heavy. So, Smith doesn’t have any illusion that these repairs that they are proposing are going to last thirty years. By putting in these replacement pavers on a one-by-one basis, maybe we buy ourselves seven-eight years and call it good. We’re lucky to get that much done. The ultimate repair, and we’ll look into this when we get these costs together, we’re still trying to get costs from HRC’s [Hubbell, Roth and Clark, the city’s contract engineers] commercial paver contractor, and that’s what our meeting tomorrow is about. We’ll see what that bid comes in. We might say geez, if I’m only getting five, if it’s going to cost me X amount of dollars, and I’m only extending the life for say five years, is it worth it. Or should we just bite the bullet and do concrete even though more expensive, is that the better way to go. Fuller agreed. Smith said that we will have to do that kind of cost evaluation when we get this estimate. Fuller said he understood. Haven thought it was a good question.

Haven said that’s the primary use for our road funds this year. Smith agreed and said it’s a lot of the ARPA [American Rescue Plan Act] funds is what that would be used for, for sidewalk and road repairs. Haven agreed and said whatever parking fees (unintelligible) but that’s a move for the future, right, so (unintelligible) allocate those. Smith agreed and said his thought, to Pardee’s point, is we don’t have the $55,000 in our account right now. If he goes back up to that, you can actually see we have, we pretty much drained it before COVID, the parking fund. So, if Smith looks at this report, if he looks at the 2021 total which was six months, that’s $23,000, and if he looks at what we gained so far this year, it’s also just ironically $23,000. We have about $46,000 of the $55,000 in the account today, and that will continue to grow. Smith’s thought is that those monies would ultimately go towards the Miller Road grant, which we were able to get, that $72,000 that you spoke of. So, we’re on our way to getting to that $72,000 that would be our match for the Miller Road grant, but these monies that we are proposing to fix the driveways in town are separate. Those would not use these parking funds. Those would come from ARPA money, which he has $98,462 or something like that. Pardee said that’s in the fund balance. Smith agreed. Pardee said to get $164,000 (unintelligible) capital projects, we took $55,000 from the parking fund, and then the balance, $12,000 or something, was coming from the fund balance. Smith agreed. Pardee said so the fund balance and the ARPA funds are one and the same. The same dollars. Smith agreed. The ARPA funds are in the bank account, and they are part of our fund balance, yes. Haven said so we will use part of our fund balance to accomplish it.

Haven said all right. So that was just Fuller’s question after hearing Smith’s report.

Agenda Item #10 – Motion: Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented (Video time mark 0:24:26):

• • 07-25-2022 Final Minutes (page 6/33 of the council packet)
  • 08-08-2022 Draft Minutes (page 8/33 of the council packet)
  • 08-17-2022 Draft Minutes (page 10/33 of the council packet)
  • 08-22-2022 Treasurer’s Report (page 12/33 of the council packet)
  • 08-17-2022 Revenue and Expenditure Report for the Period Ending 07-31-2022 (page 13/33 of the council packet)
  • Carlisle/Wortman, July invoices (page 23/33 of the council packet)

Haven said (unintelligible) the packet (unintelligible) audience, a compilation of our draft minutes from our August 17^th meeting, draft minutes from – to Smith, Haven said one should be final, right? Jennifer Speagle [clerk] said that we have one final and two draft minutes. Haven said the final was the 8^th, right? That’s two weeks ago, or two meetings ago? Wylie said July 25^th was the final. Haven said he sees. Speagle said it’s because we had the special meeting. Haven agreed. Wylie said the 8^th and August 17^th are the drafts. Haven said we have two drafts in our consent agenda and then the treasurer’s report. That happens every time. It’s a consolidated way for us to discuss these. If any one of the council members wants to pull something out and ask a question about that collection, that’s fine, but otherwise, we will approve it as a packet.

Haven asked if anyone would like to move to accept the consent agenda as presented.

Motion by Fuller; second Wylie.

Haven asked if there was any discussion about this.

No discussion from council.

Pardee said that he had a comment that he wanted to make. Haven said OK. Pardee said that the thing that jumped out at him was we have one month’s revenue based on this timing, and it’s 1% of what’s budgeted. Smith agreed. Pardee said so there’ll be some acceleration through the year, but he was surprised how small that was, 1%. Smith said they don’t come in in 1/12 increments because taxes are our big revenue. We get taxes in in September pretty much. We’ve got some here in August. August and September is where the taxes come in, but this represents July. Not a lot of people pay their taxes in July. And then the winter taxes are paid in February. So, it’s just one of those off months. Smith said it was not surprising to him. Haven said that people wait until the last minute. (Unintelligible comments.) Haven said get as much interest as you can. Fuller agreed.

Haven said that they have a motion and second. They’ve had some discussion already, Mr. Pardee. Haven asked if there was any other discussion about the consent agenda.

No additional discussion.

The motion to accept the consent agenda as presented passed by unanimous voice vote.

Agenda Item #11, Old Business:

Item 11a – Motion: Clarkston Independence District Library request to appoint District Library Board Member (Video time mark 0:27:10):

• • 08-22-2022 Memo to City Council from Julie Meredith, Subject: Request to Appoint District Library Board Member (page 25/33 of the council packet)
  • 08-14-2022 Expression of Interest in Appointment from Maggie Sans (page 26/33 of the council packet)

Haven said old business is next, and the first issue is, and he doesn’t know why we are calling it old business, is the CIDL [Clarkston Independence District Library] request to appoint a district library member which is our role, our job. We received a letter from Meredith indicating that Nancy Moon and Meredith have been searching. So, Haven assumes from this that Moon is staying on. Moon agreed. Haven said her tenure is up; it’s a reappointment. Meredith said they aren’t doing that yet; they’ll do that later this fall in October. Anne Rose is no longer a resident of the city, so she had to step off the board. Haven agreed. Meredith said they are asking that somebody be appointed for the remainder of her term, and then you will see us again probably October/November, whatever works well for you, to reappoint Moon unless we scare her off. Haven said try not to do that. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Haven said so, Meredith wants to introduce Maggie [Sans] to us.

Meredith said that Sans is on Main Street next door to Moon (unintelligible). Haven said there you go. Meredith said that she does have some strong history here in the community. She actually remembers the original little library, with the little lighthouse. Haven said she’s in already. (Laughter.) Meredith (unintelligible) is interested in books and in her application, she pointed out that she thinks that a well-educated community is (unintelligible). Haven said that they are thrilled, and he’s glad that Moon didn’t have to walk too far. (Laughter.)

Haven asked if Sans had anything she wanted to say. Sans said not really. She’s very excited and honored to serve on the library board as Clarkston’s representative. She really does believe in the vibrancy of the community being connected to a vibrant library, so she’s excited about it and the programming. Meredith has been nothing but making her more excited, so she would be honored to do it.

Haven said that Sans has a global perspective, didn’t she. Haven asked how many years she was in Hong Kong. Sans said in Beijing. Haven said Beijing, for how many years. Sans said just for two, but she didn’t know if that’s experience that she’ll bring to bear though. (Laughter.) Haven said it’s transferrable skills. Sans agreed.

Haven said he would entertain a motion to appoint Sans.

Motion by Rodgers; second Casey.

Haven asked if there was any discussion.

Tom Ryan [city attorney] said they should state what the term is and when it will expire. Haven said he should look it up. Speagle said it’s at the bottom of the page. Ryan said December 31^st of this year 2022. Haven said all right. Meredith said 2020 through 2022. Haven agreed and said so that being part of our motion here, is there any discussion?

No discussion.

Motion to appoint Sans to the CIDL board passed by unanimous voice vote.

Haven congratulated Sans. Sans said she will serve with honor. Haven said he knows she will, he knows she will.

Item 11b – Discussion: Main Street Oakland County Update (Video time mark 0:30:48):

This is a discussion on Main Street, which Meyland alluded to in his comments. Haven said he didn’t know if there is a presentation. He knows they got something from Cara [Catallo] this afternoon. [Haven acknowledged Catallo in the audience.] Haven said (unintelligible) and there’s some things going on with that.

Catallo said she first started, she was surprised it got moved to a discussion because she was under the impression that it was tabled from an earlier meeting, so she doesn’t know if that’s the appropriate way to do it. If it was tabled, it seems like then it would have come back as a decision, like she doesn’t, she’s just pointing out a little bit of, you know, housekeeping. She means, that’s why she’s looking at Ryan. If it was tabled – (interrupting), Ryan asked if it was tabled for more information from Catallo’s group. Catallo said she thinks so, but she thinks at that point, it might have been more of a decision than just a discussion, so it’s a little bit tough in that regard, but we’ve come back to kind of just share the information that we were asked to find out. She hoped to have a presentation, but we ran out of time in the weekend for personal reasons, but we’re back tonight to basically kind of, kind of get your support. She knows that they probably forgot, but to kind of clear up any misconceptions, answer any questions you might have that pertain actually to Main Street Oakland County or what we’re hoping to do.

A brief refresher. We’re trying to establish a nonprofit organization with the express purpose of providing our community, Clarkton, the City of the Village of Clarkston, most notably our business district and city government, opportunities, training, and grant funding to promote and strengthen our economic vitality (unintelligible) and continue the community’s commitment to preservation, which is a really important part of the Main Street organization. Why it is happening now is because Catallo thinks, you know, we’ve demonstrated, the pandemic demonstrated the need. We have found, Brandon [Still], Jonathan [Smith], and Catallo, attending meetings with these other groups and communities sort of empowered us to know more things that we can do, like we are able to find answers to questions, we are able to learn from their experiences, and that, she thinks, is invaluable. This city leans on its businesses for revenue, and the businesses are hurting right now, and we are in a position where we can help them. We cannot help them unless we get a nonprofit organization to capture some of these dollars, so that is why we’re here. There’s no personal benefit to Catallo, she does this all as a volunteer, she does not have a business beyond her own, you know, her own business that she has that has nothing to do with this, so she gets no gains from this. Still has a business in town. Any gains that he would get he would have to be, step away to get, to be awarded any grant, so he really doesn’t have a benefit beyond that either.

Catallo did want to point out that trade is vital to this community, and it is part of our DNA. We are in this space right now because the settlers could build a mill. That’s the only reason we’re in this location. There’s a time when the railroad came in, down at, like on your way to Andersonville, this community almost moved there because it made more sense as a trade, like it was basically between a mill and a waterpower or the trains coming into deliver our goods or to bring goods to us, and this community decided that trade here was so important that they stayed here. So, all of these beautiful houses are here because of the mill. Like, we’re here because of business, so she thinks that we owe that still today, even if it’s easy to sort of lose sight of that, she thinks it’s important, and it’s demonstrated today with the parking. Catallo apologized and said she hates to public speak so this is hard for her. She’s only here because she’s this committed to this community.

Continuing, Catallo said so, the 501(c)(3) is important, because we can’t get certain grants without it. We just (unintelligible) miss grant after grant because we can’t legally have access to it. We were able to work through a very kind community that helped get us some of the grants recently, but we can’t just rely on them. It’s not fair to that community, and frankly, they’re not going to allow us.

Catallo said she would answer some of the questions. [Catallo didn’t identify what the questions were, where the questions came from, and nothing was in the council packet to refer to, but presumably the next several paragraphs were answering the questions she referenced.]

Catallo said that the notion that everything is fine, we don’t have any vacancies, economic vitality is not synonymous with occupancy, so that really doesn’t matter at all. If you want to think about it, consider that the decreased parking revenue, that tells us that things are not all like shiny and happy here.

Catallo said that we decided back in 2008 not to do this, well, that was a long time ago, a really long time ago, and the reason why we didn’t do that is because it wasn’t cost-effective to hire somebody to staff this position. Now we’re able to do it as volunteers, so that makes a whole difference, and she thinks that would have been approved in 2008.

Catallo said we already get whatever we want from Main Street Oakland County. Well, not really, because they’re looking at us, they’ve been great partners to us, and we’ve just been sort of like huh, what can we get from you. It’s time to sort of demonstrate that we believe in us as much as they believe in us.

Catallo said (unintelligible) what’s in it for the county, valid question, but also sort of simple. A strong thriving community benefits the county as a whole. They want people that want to move to Oakland County, so if there’s a beautiful city here, then it says a lot for this community. Also, we’re the home of the late L. Brooks Patterson. He wasn’t in the city, but he was in like next community over (Pardee smiled), and that, she means it might be funny [referencing Pardee?], but we were sort of considered his Main Street, so the county sort of wanted us to be part of it because this organization was founded when L. Brooks was in office.

Catallo said shouldn’t the council select the board and doesn’t even think that they would choose Still or Catallo, that was maybe one of her favorite ones, there was more that maybe she liked a little bit more. We have worked hard for free to help our community, and frankly no one in this community knows more about Main Street Oakland County than we do, with the exception of Smith who’s attended a nice variety of events, and the three of us make a really handy trifecta, and we can do it as volunteers without hiring a Main Street manager, which makes all the difference. Between the two of us, we’ve demonstrated our commitment by helping local businesses get grants totaling about $7,000, raising more than $2,000 for the city, and saving the city around $3,000 more, all as volunteers, like between the two of us. We’re not getting paid for this. So, Catallo feels like that should demonstrate something.

Catallo said they also intend to have a council liaison on their board as well as Smith, so there will be representation, just not the entire board, because if it’s politicized, then it’s no good.

Catallo said finally, businesses aren’t interested in support. That is the most eye-opening comment because we went around, and we talked to the businesses and we’ve yet to find one that’s not interested. So, we have a letter here. She couldn’t get it together sooner because they were waiting for more to come in. (Catallo passed out documents to the council.) So, all of these businesses have demonstrated that they support what we are doing. Anybody not on here is only not on here because we either haven’t heard back or we didn’t get around to talking to them. So, it’s not that the other ones don’t believe in us, it’s just we still have to speak with them. (Unintelligible comment from the audience, comments about additional copies, additional unintelligible comment.)

Catallo said so, she had hoped that we’d would be coming here, like, she really got fired up with the cake, and she knows that, she thanks Smith (unintelligible) for the cake, but she’s like if there’s $1,000 for a cake for a chamber event, it seems like there should be $1,000 for, you know, for seed money, because the county’s given us $1,000. We only have until October 1^st to get this underway, so you know, they’ve given us $1,000, they were kind enough to give us an extension, she understands that, you know, people worked very actively against this with misinformation, and she can only do what she can do and tell you what we are here to do. We’re not here to (unintelligible) parades, we’re not interested in having festivals, we probably will have some shopping events like sidewalk sales. She doesn’t think those are controversial. There won’t specifically be themes. We’re not interested in bringing marijuana into town, that’s not what this is about. We’re just here to trying and support our businesses. (To Still), Catallo said she didn’t know what she hasn’t covered, she knows it’s a lot, but if he has anything he’d like to add.

Still said that there was one other comment that he would like to speak to as a business owner which is that some business owners aren’t attending, they’re not coming and expressing their concerns or their troubles, which he found interesting because as a small business owner the last thing he would want to do is come publicly on TV and tell you about how hard I have it. So, he doesn’t think that’s an indication that there’s not a desire to have help, to have organization in this community. It is kind of disheartening to know that there have been opportunities out here for years to push funds into the businesses to help us all and that they’ve just sat on the sideline. So, he knows it’s a small city and just a couple of people can’t be expected to do everything, so that’s really why they’re here. To help. It’s not to steal from the brand, it’s not to take advantage of anything, it’s to help make this a strong community.

Haven said OK and thanked them. (Haven made an additional unintelligible comment.)

Wylie asked if either of them could refresh her memory about the $1,000. Catallo said right, well actually now we’ve met, this will be our third time, so it’s been a long time, and like it’s been the most stalling that we’ve had in our experience, but what we were looking for, we are hoping, for $1,000 to match the money that the county is willing to put toward this to go towards the legal fees. Wylie said the 501(c)(3). Catallo said exactly. Wylie said that’s all she wanted to know and thanked Catallo.

Haven said Catallo read us a letter. Was that in that letter that she wrote them, did she make a formal request for $1,000? He doesn’t remember that. (To Smith) Catallo said she wasn’t sure at this point because it’s been drawn out so long. Smith said he thought he didn’t think they did request that specific amount, but they were asking for support to get the 501(c)(3) started. He doesn’t know that they expressed the amount, but as Catallo said, they’ve extended the deadline from what he thinks was June 30^th to he thinks October 1^st. So, we are trying to find ways, if this makes sense for our community, and the three of us believe it does, it’s all upside, no downside, we’d like to, as a group, move forward with this. We think our businesses need help. If you would like businesses to come in and speak to this, we have a couple business owners here tonight, but we can bring them in, but we’d like to get a decision as quickly as possible.

Avery asked if it was an annual $1,000 or just a one-time deal. Catallo said it’s a one-time deal just because we need to get the nonprofit status going, and we have the attorney like all lined up who has experience doing this, she believes he did it for Pontiac. So, really, it’s just so that we have access to greater grant opportunities because we’re missing them without a nonprofit to capture them. Like it has to go to a nonprofit and then we can, you know, help the community with the grant. Like, we’d write the grant, if the grant’s received, it would go through us towards the (unintelligible). Avery said to him, it seems like a good idea. If we’re going to spend $1,000 on a birthday cake and ice cream, it seems like $1,000 to help our local businesses and help keep them moving forward is a no brainer to him. Catallo thanked Avery.

Haven asked if any of the other council members [had any questions].

Fuller said so, his understanding is there will be four people on this board. Catallo said no, at this point, we’re still sort of, we just, what she was asking for support, somebody reached out to ask if like, yeah, um, I’d like to offer my support and also if there’s a spot on the board, but right now, she thinks we have six people committed to be on the board she’s hoping, some haven’t precisely committed, but we’ve reached out to six people with hopes that that’s all that needs to be the board, but she does understand that a better board is five or seven, so she thinks it will ultimately be seven.

Fuller asked if the one businessperson who has an active business in the community is Stills. Catallo asked if he meant on the board. Fuller asked if there are any other people who (unintelligible) committee. Catallo said that’s a huge part of it. Actually, Eric Lines, she’s hoping will be on the board. She believes he has a business, right Lines? [Cara Catallo’s brother Curt owns three restaurants in town, and Lines is his business partner.] (Laughter and unintelligible comments.) And then the other business owner that reached out is actually the, well, she guesses she shouldn’t actually say until we talk to him, but it is a business owner as well in the community, and she’s trying to see, she thinks then the rest are, and actually like Lines is also a resident which, she thinks, matters. Smith, they were hoping would be on the board, so, not a business owner but works in the community, right, and also lives here, and then we’re waiting to hear from a certain council person if she would like to be on the board, but we’ve approached Rodgers to see, because frankly, her work with the winter market seems to be an indicator that she is excited to bring activity into the community, and plus we have, as an aside, we have already started to discuss the notion of a shopping event in winter so we were stunned when we heard about it, so this is actually great because we don’t have to put anything like that on, but we can also like help with promotion. We have access through the county to help in that regard.

Haven asked if there was anything else.

Ryan said other than giving seed money of $1,000, does the city council have anything at all to do with this board? Catallo said we would have the liaison – (interrupting Catallo), Ryan said he understands that, but what does the city council have to do with the board, if anything, other than being a liaison. Catallo said she would say she hoped that it would be an opportunity to share information between the council and the businesses, so that the businesses, the council knows what the businesses are doing, and, or concerns by the businesses, but, and like they would be voting members, or are you asking for greater, like ultimately what, here’s what she would love. She would love the council to say what a great organization, we are so lucky to have this organization. Like five years down the line, let’s bring it inhouse. We’ll have an economic development person in the office and we can be in charge of Main Street Clarkston because, you know, it’s great to be a volunteer, but it would be better to have an actual position here where somebody is, we can hand it off, and they can go running and help make Clarkston all it can be, but Catallo knows that it’s been sort of slightly reticent, so we’ll use this time to prove ourselves. That’s why we’re hoping seed money, and we’re not hoping or asking for much more, but ultimately it would be great, Franklin started out this way, and she thinks they gave their main street community $16,000 this past year, so, you know, that’s where she stands with that. Ryan said so, the answer is other than giving the seed money, it’s going to be a separate, stand-alone entity, which maybe someday (unintelligible) envelope into the city, but otherwise, it’s a stand-alone 501(c)(3) entity. Catallo said right. Ryan said not affiliated with the city. Catallo said right, and in a lot of communities it might be a DDA [Downtown Development Authority] or a TIF [Tax Increment Financing], like a different organization like that, just in our case and in some other cases, she thinks also including she thinks Pontiac and she thinks Franklin, it’s a nonprofit instead of a DDA or a TIF. Ryan said so, using the ask for the money is to better the area, the Clarkston area, relative to its downtown and promoting business in the city.

Haven said OK, on affiliating, can they define affiliate. He’d like to understand the word affiliate. The word has been used with Oakland County Main Street, right? Catallo said well, yeah, but she doesn’t think in – (interrupting Catallo), Haven said he knows she has a different context for it, he gets it, but Haven thinks that what Ryan is looking for is what our (unintelligible) obligatory sort of connections, is that what Ryan is saying. (Catallo made some unintelligible comments.) Ryan said right, and there will be a liaison from city council on the committee. Haven said on the committee. Ryan said the city council won’t appoint the committee. It’s a stand-alone organization that’s affiliated with the city. Haven agreed.

Haven said OK, he knows that on the formation of these things, you need the bylaws and articles of incorporation. Catallo agreed. Haven said so, we need to see that, you know, going forward, OK? (Catallo nodded.)

Wylie asked if we really needed to see them. Catallo said she didn’t think they actually need to, but – Haven said again, you’re asking us to endorse something. If we see your bylaws (unintelligible), we know what you’re standing for. Catallo said right. Haven said other than the oral description.

Casey asked wouldn’t they need the seed money to do that. Catallo said it’s putting the cart before the horse, but if you know anything about Main Street Oakland County, or even greater than Main Street organization on a national level, which is a subsidiary of the national trust [National Trust for Historic Preservation?], because part of this organization’s main aspect is that preservation matters. It was started to help historic downtowns survive when things were changing pretty rapidly, she thinks, you know, more like, we’re talking more 1980 or (unintelligible) and times like that, so it was founded with that, and preservation is a huge component. So, if you look at anything with, nothing they would do would be different from the Main Street mission or purpose. So, it’s not that we’re gonna have some devious aside because Main Street wouldn’t want us to do that, they wouldn’t allow us to do that, so you know, it all follows their principles and their goals, and basically it’s a way for us to get economic benefits, she means it’s not that fancy, or you know, it’s just a way for us to raise more money and do better things and do things like the banners in town or something. We were able to do that through Main Street Oakland County during the pandemic. There’s a beautification grant, and we saw an opportunity, and we found a great artist who was able to do the work pro bono, which is the only way we were able to do it, and now we have banners because there were these beautiful lamp posts that didn’t really have much on them anymore so we helped spark some, you know, community pride, and that’s pretty much what it does. It’s wayfinding and placemaking.

Avery said yeah, he doesn’t really see a downside here, because if something comes up in the future that certain members of the council might find isn’t in keeping with what we’re about as a city, we can certainly bring you back to the council and discuss it and if everything blows up, maybe we can disassociate ourselves. (Catallo nodded.) Avery said worst case scenario, but that’s not really what we’re talking about here. Avery said he thinks let’s get started with it and get things moving and see how it goes and have them come back once a year and give us an update and then see if it’s doing what has been described. He doesn’t see a problem.

Smith said he thinks we should do it more often than that. He thinks they should (unintelligible) during their initial steps to keep you updated on what’s going on. Certainly, Rodgers, if she’s on board, and Smith, if he’s on the board, they would keep the council updated, but Smith thinks it would be a fair question for the council to ask, I want to know what you’re working on and get some feedback maybe more frequently at the start, at the onset of this new group, but then later cut back to maybe once a year, but he thinks initially, you want, until you feel comfortable with the new organization, do it often.

Ryan said it’s not an unreasonable ask from them, if they’re asking for money, to see the bylaws and the corporate documents. That’s reasonable. To see what the goals are and the objectives, you know what they are generally. Haven said to see where they stand. Ryan said you know, if they want to do this, just say we’d like to see the documents, you know, not that you have to review them or anything, but just know what’s going on. Generally, you know what it is, but look at the details. Catallo said she believes it would be public knowledge. Ryan said right (unintelligible crosstalk). Ryan said you want money, what do you get for the money, well here’s what you’re getting. That’s all.

Catallo said we want you to like us, so it’s not like we’re going to be like, hah, $1,000, let’s party, so (unintelligible crosstalk). Catallo said ultimately, she would love, we want to impress you, we want you to want to give us more money, so, you know, like that, she would not, like we will walk you through, and she means she’s at all the meetings, so she’s very accessible, like, we want you to like this program and get to know our businesses better, so it’s not, there’s nothing untoward.

Haven said he wanted to say something candidly to Catallo and Still, and he alluded to this earlier. He’s watched you guys over time, you know, he’s watched what you’ve done. He talked with Catallo about the banners two years ago in town and other things they’ve done. She’s chaired their sign committee. You gave us good signage. Still is proactive in getting grant money. Haven (unintelligible) the last 24 hours, he talked about the two grants that really you were successful in getting last year $2,500, and he thinks Lines benefitted and he thinks Still’s [?] business benefitted as well. There may have been some others and Haven doesn’t know how they distributed all the money, but nevertheless, his question to him was, and his question to you is this – when thinking about the personnel, the liaisons going forward, is there’s something that you may not have taken into consideration, and that is, you realize the city is a charity already. (An unidentified person agreed.) Haven said that we are not a 501(c)(3); municipalities are charities in and of themselves. The Friends of Depot Park two years ago raised $50,000 in cash and in-kind gifts to match a DNR [Department of Natural Resources] grant of $50,000, OK? And what that money was used for was putting down the pathways in the park, OK? So, we’ve already exercised that tool here that we have. With Smith being affiliated, if you will, a board member or not board member, and he knows they have some affection for Smith (unintelligible), you’ve worked with him already, if that’s too strong a term, no misunderstanding, but he gets the relationship, and he knows Rodgers has been very proactive as far as the Christmas Market and so on, and he’s encouraged her to do that as well, so, Haven has been thinking about this a lot, thinking about relative to the history and our relationship with Oakland County, and realizing that the crux of the issue is revenue that benefits our business community. If you’re in our community at large, all right, as a result of that, so he’s not opposed to this relationship. He’s been thinking about it for quite a while because he knew what the history was. He knew the 2008 history. He was sitting here. He knew the DDA discussion, you know, which had no merit whatsoever. But you guys in fact have put a lot of energy, you know, into this, so he’s appreciative of that, frankly. His only thought was that he did want to see the articles of incorporation and the bylaws. He thinks that it’s right that we do that if we’re going to call ourselves in some respect, you know, affiliated, we need to understand that, but you’re a private, you’re a separate entity. If you’re going to go for your own 501(c)(3), that’s up to you, but you can utilize, and we’ve already utilized, the charitable institution we have right here, you know, right now for dealing with grants. Haven said he thinks what you’re bringing to the picture is a lot of energy, you know. You guys have worked hard over the last two years and you’re bringing energy to this cause, and he thinks together, we all want the same thing. We all want a prosperous community and COVID hit us right between the eyes and we’re still sort of trying to recover from this. But a lot of things we do, we want to be on the same page, so we don’t need diversity, we need unanimity, you know, going forward. So, he’d like to, we can do what we want with this discussion item tonight. You kind of heard the council, you know, the spirit, and so on, and we can leave it at this for a moment, and then take next steps toward you moving forward.

If there’s a desire from council, Haven said he would entertain a motion if you want to do that, for the $1,000 for (unintelligible) for the 501(c)(3), if you still think you need that. Catallo thinks they do.

Wylie said Haven is going to change our agenda. Haven said he’s just throwing out a hypothetical here. Casey said he thought we ought to move forward with it. Wylie agreed.

Wylie said she would like to make a motion to change the agenda to add a resolution to vote on granting $1,000 to Main Street Clarkston if that’s what you guys call yourselves. Haven asked if that is the name. Continuing, Wylie said for legal fees for a 501(c)(3) formation. Catallo said she thinks that’s the (unintelligible), it seems like that’s the, that would seem like that’s the (unintelligible crosstalk). Wylie said doing business as Main Street Clarkston. Wylie asked Ryan if she got it all. Ryan agreed.

Haven said he thought that some of this might be boilerplate from the county. In other words, they’ve done it in other communities, so your articles of incorporation and your bylaws in your name maybe already sort of in place for that, you know. Catallo agreed. Haven said (unintelligible) so – (interrupting Haven), Wylie said her motion was to change the agenda, so we need to do that first.

Haven asked if there was a second to change the agenda. Second Casey.

Haven asked if there was any discussion.

Ryan said it needs to be unanimous. Wylie agreed.

Fuller asked what Ryan said, and Wylie said that it has to be unanimous.

Haven asked if they needed a roll call to change the agenda. (No audible response from Ryan.)

The motion to change the agenda passed by unanimous voice vote.

Haven said OK, so we’ve changed the agenda to turn this discussion item into – (interrupting Haven), Wylie said now she would like to make a resolution to award this group doing business as Main Street Clarkston $1,000 for legal fees to form a 501(c)(3) incorporation or however you call it. Ryan said they need to say when the documents are done – (interrupting Ryan), Wylie said and when the documents are done, you will return those to the city council and staff can look at it. (Catallo nodded.)

Haven said OK, so we have that motion for resolution and asked if there was a second. Second Avery.

Haven asked if there was any discussion.

Ryan asked who actually is going to get the check. Smith said the attorney. Still said he forgot her name at the moment. Smith asked if they’ve finalized the selection for the attorney, he thought they have. Catallo agreed. Still said he could look it up if it’s critical. Ryan asked if he would mind. Smith said that’s who the check would be made out to. Ryan said it’s city money. Haven said it’s a good question.

Haven asked if there were any other questions.

Wylie asked if they had a timeframe in mind. Still said they have to be done by October (unintelligible crosstalk and laughter). Catallo said it’s spent already. Catallo said that they will still have to make $500, so anybody, you know where to find us. Haven asked if they weren’t giving them $1,500. Catallo said they gave us $1,000, so we’ve matched the county, but she will say it was really rather touching, having to speak with every business, and a few of them said like, you know, let us know how we can help, so you know, she’s hopeful that, you know, $500 isn’t so daunting, $1,500 made her panic. She’s not really equipped to have a bake sale or anything. She’s a very introverted person, but so she’s excited that, she feels like we can see the finish line this way, and then the attorneys have been on hold since Oakland County gave us the money, and it was the panic of like that $1,000 disappearing, and then we’ll be able to sort of move forward and not miss any more grant opportunities.

Still said that the attorney is Lisa Berden with Linchpin. Ryan asked how he spelled that. Still said B-e-r-d-e-n and Linchpin is L-i-n-c-h-p-i-n. Still said he’s a little confused whether they make it to her or Nashville Main Street care of Main Street Oakland County, but he would find that out right away. Ryan said that can be figured out. It’s on the public record. Wylie and Ryan thanked Still.

Haven said there is a motion and a second. Wylie said she’s sorry, it’s a resolution. Haven agreed, a motion to adopt this resolution is the way he looks at it. Wylie agreed. Haven said anyway, we have a motion and a second, and a second from Avery.

Haven asked if there was any further discussion on this from council.

No further discussion.

Haven said since we’re going in this direction, you guys put so much energy into this, you’ve acknowledged that, and we’ve acknowledged that in the last few weeks, and Haven thinks we need to go through the process since we had all that history and so on. But we are here. Haven really relishes the opportunity to work in this direction with you all, OK? The amount of energy you’ve shown, you know, gives him a lot of hope for next steps with this. He thinks that there’s some things, and he thinks when we begin to probe the county as to the things that they could do to help us, outside the typical, and John (unintelligible) told him this afternoon that the two grants for 2022 are done, OK, we’re into 2023, you know. Haven said he’d like to support this endeavor in terms of some communication broadly about what’s going on, and you’ll do the same thing, but let this community know what’s happening so that perhaps they’ll be some generous people who would like to see some things happen with your charity, if you will, OK, because again, 501(c)(3) is a charitable organization, right? Catallo agreed. Haven said you’re setting (unintelligible). Catallo said it’s a tax-exempt, nonprofit. Haven agreed and said that people could write it off, you know, they can do that, so it’s a good thing, he thinks. We’re moving in the right direction and the energy’s right, it feels right, and the council has acknowledged that.

Haven said he would call for a roll call unless there’s any other discussion.

No additional discussion.

Avery, Wylie, Fuller, Haven, Casey, Rodgers voted yes. Motion carried.

Catallo thanked the council and said she really appreciated it. Still said thanks to the business owners who came out tonight. Haven asked if they wanted to say anything, to cheerlead. An unidentified person said that fifteen years ago, Peg Roth and he started the downtown retailers’ association, though that’s fallen apart over the last several years, so he’s very happy to hear that this will continue, that effort, get some more continuity and you know, just some more dynamics going with the business district, so, because we do need it. You know, we’re doing OK, but (unintelligible) three other locations that, two of which do better than this one, so, you know, that helps support Clarkston, so, you know, it’s still shocking how many people that live within a mile of us never shop downtown. So, you know, here, the more attractive, anything we can do to Clarkston to get our local residents downtown is well worth that. He thanked the council.

Haven said he was the one that made the comment about cohesiveness and lack of appearance here, and he gets Still’s point, you don’t want to come here to air dirty laundry, that’s not the point, but to have an interaction, he would encourage you all to be here more often, you know that kind of thing, hear what’s going on. He knows that these aren’t the most important and interesting meetings in the world, you know, you can watch us on TV too, you know. But it’s good, the interaction feeling, it’s good to have the business community here with us, you know.

The unidentified man said that he thinks that the one thing that he hears from other business owners, you know there are few of us that own businesses and live in Clarkston, so he thinks a lot of business owners don’t feel that they’re really welcome to come to this. If they don’t live here, they can’t go. Haven said so outside – (the unidentified man continued), so that might be something – Haven said it could be – (the man continued) an outreach from all of you to make sure that the other business owners that their opinion, even though they can’t vote, is still very welcome. Haven agreed.

Haven asked if Lines had anything to say. He’s a new resident there on West Washington Street. Haven asked if he’d moved in yet. Lines said he had. He was just going to say as Haven mentioned earlier (unintelligible) business take advantage of what Main Street northern Oakland County is going to do, so he’s glad that we’re doing this because (unintelligible cross talk between Haven and Lines). Lines said because we all know where all this is a (unintelligible) right now, they can us any help they can get with no matter what (unintelligible). Haven agreed.

Haven asked if they see any grant opportunities in the near future. He knows that they are in the next year’s cycle with Oakland County. Were there some other institutional perhaps (unintelligible) that you foresee? Still said he thinks that we may have missed the (unintelligible) grant. Catallo agreed. Still said technical assistance grants that we can apply for, and they’ve also welcomed us to come with ideas and they can help us find funds for ideas we want to proactively go after as well. Catallo said one thing she didn’t mention is that it is particularly moving to see how they moved in and helped Holly at, like their job, like it was the next day they were there, like feet on the ground, helping Holly, and heaven forbid we have a tragedy like that, like you need everybody in your corner, and they have access to national grants that we might not know about, so just the notion that they had people on their team that can work towards finding ways to help a community through a tragedy makes a huge difference. She believes they are looking to, like because of their preservation architect, she thinks they are going to work to rebuild all three buildings. Haven said he heard (unintelligible). Catallo said the Holly Hotel, you know, was the least damaged, but the other two were extensively damaged and one was completely decimated. But like when we had that little fire, you know, between Buffalo and Main Street, that’s all she could think about was like oh my gosh, we need to make sure that we have people in our corner if something tragic like that happens, so but that helped push her over the edge.

Haven asked if the Hallmark movie got done before the fire. He thought it did. Catallo said she had no idea. Speagle said it did get done. Haven said he thought it did.

Haven said congratulations to you all. Everyone thanked each other.

Agenda Item #12, New Business

Item 12a – Resolution: City Hall Water Heater Replacement (Video time mark 1:08:38):

• • Resolution – City Hall Water Heater Replacement (page 29/33 of the council packet)
  • Bid Comparison (page 30/33 of the council packet)
  • 08-15-2022 Estimate from Kotz Heating/Cooling/Plumbing (page 31/33 of the council packet)
  • 08-18-2022 Proposal from Nichols Heating & Cooling (page 32/33 of the council packet)

Haven said we are moving on to new business. A resolution for a city hall water heater replacement. How exciting is that.

Smith said not very exciting and surprisingly expensive. (Laughter.) Back in the day, you could replace a water heater for $1,000, and that’s just not the case anymore. Combining the replacement cost, or the cost of the water heater, is the fact that we are converting from electric to gas. Smith said he wasn’t sure why the city installed an electric water heater back in the day. It’s usually something you do, he doesn’t know, if you don’t have gas service, but if you have access to gas, which we do right in that room, Smith doesn’t know why they installed electric, but it’s, a gas heater will be way more efficient. You think we don’t have showers here, why do we need it, hot water, it’s still important that we wash our hands from the bathroom and the guest bathroom outside. We’d like to have hot water. We’ve never had hot water in that outside restroom since we opened it over a year ago. So, Smith thinks it’s important just for cleanliness, but also Jimi [Turner, DPW Supervisor] uses it. You’d be amazed how many times he needs hot water for cleaning the trucks and cleaning the equipment, just to cut the grease and whatnot. Hot water is important.

So, this is long overdue. This one has been working erratically, or it completely stopped working, but it’s been erratically working for almost a year, and it’s time. We just can’t put it off any longer. So, Smith is asking for approval. We have funds available in our professional services budget under capital outlay, and that’s what he’s proposing funds this project.

Haven said OK, we have a resolution in front of us as Smith described. Who would like to move to adopt this resolution?

Motion to adopt the resolution by Rodgers; second Casey.

Haven asked if there was any discussion.

Avery said he had a quick question. We go out, and he knows we’re only talking about $45.00 here, so he gets it, but if we go out and get bids and the low bidder doesn’t get awarded, and there’s not a particular reason why we don’t go with the low bid, doesn’t that kind of defeat the purpose? Smith said he always looks at the quality of the bid, and in this case, the $45.00 higher bidder is giving us twice the warranty, one year versus two, and Smith thought that alone was worth the $45.00. Avery said fair enough. Smith said he makes a good point. You should go with, the purchasing ordinance says we should go with the lowest bidder unless there is – (interrupting Smith), Ryan said lowest and best. Smith said lowest and best, it does say that, so in this case, Smith thought the second lowest bidder. If he had wanted $1,000 more for that extra year it wouldn’t have been worth it, but for $45.00, yes.

Haven wanted to know why we don’t have the minutes reflect that. He thinks it’s a good question, he thinks it’s a good thing that we ought to put in the minutes. If there’s a reason for something, a little bit higher bidder than the lowest bidder, the lowest and best, that’s good terminology for us to keep thinking about going forward.

Haven said so we have, Rodgers and Casey, moved and seconded. So, is there any other discussion, questions?

Wylie said she’s assuming a big part of the cost is to convert from electric to gas. Smith said they have to run, they have to run a gas line, tap into the gas line, and then they have to put a vent outside that doesn’t currently exist. Wylie said that what she’s asking is, is it worth it to do the conversion. Is electricity that much more than gas that we should pay to have this conversion done from electric to gas. Smith said well, a water heater should last twenty years, so in his opinion, it’s worth it to make that investment now. Yes, he could probably get an electric hot water heater replacement just one for one, but he doesn’t know the cost of them, but to him, it’s just as plain as the nose on his face that we need to – (interrupting Smith), Wylie said that’s how she thinks too, but she just wondered if there was any extra concrete information. That’s how she feels. She would not want to pay to use electricity to heat anything. Smith agreed (unintelligible) and another twenty years from now, he thinks it’s going to pay for itself many, many times over heating with gas. It’s far more efficient. Wylie thanked Smith.

Haven asked if there were any other comments for Smith.

No additional comments.

Haven, Avery, Wylie, Rodgers, Fuller, and Casey voted yes. Motion carried.

Item 12b – Resolution: New Oakland County Transportation Millage (Video time mark 1:14:18):

• • Resolution – New Oakland County Transportation Millage (page 33/33 of the council packet)

[Please note the following emailed public comment to the city council from Richard Bisio that was not acknowledged by Haven at the meeting:

Dear Council Members:

I write to urge you to oppose the resolution in the council packet for the August 22, 2022, meeting regarding the county-wide transit millage. The resolution would “authorize[] … the City Manager to exercise discretion in participating in advocacy in opposition to the Oakland County transit millage, including, if appropriate, participation with other communities in litigation seeking to prevent the proposed .95 mill tax from being placed on the November 2022 ballot for voter approval.”

You should reject this resolution for two reasons.

First, it is anti-democratic. Rather than allowing the voters to decide the issue, this favors having a court take the decision away from the voters. The voters should have the opportunity to evaluate the pros and cons of the proposal and weigh the benefit against the cost, rather than have the city council and a court stop them from voting. Although I would vote against the millage, there are arguments that boosting transit funding would benefit the county’s economy, including even an indirect benefit to northern Oakland County municipalities. The counter view is that Clarkston and northern Oakland County taxpayers should not be taxed for a service that doesn’t benefit them. There are two sides to the question and the voters should be allowed to consider the arguments and make the decision, rather than taking the decision out of their hands.

Second, even if the council wants to commit the city to trying to take this issue out of the voters’ hands, the open-ended nature of the resolution confers too much discretion on the city manager. It allows him to commit the city to litigation of unknown dimensions and costs to take the proposal off the ballot for undisclosed reasons. It allows him to commit the city to spend unlimited taxpayer funds on litigation when the city is already involved in other election litigation and has insufficient funds to meet its obligations, such as maintaining its sidewalks and streets. If the council wants to go down this path, it should at least require the city manager to make a detailed proposal with a cost estimate before considering going forward. Placing open-ended discretion in the city manager’s hands to do or say anything at an unspecified cost is imprudent.

For these reasons, I urge the council to reject the proposed resolution.]

Haven said the next item on the agenda, the last item before adjournment, is a resolution for a proposal here for a new Oakland County transportation millage action to see if we can fight the Oakland County Commissioners’ approval of a county-wide millage increasing .95, or almost one mill, to support public transportation in Oakland County for which the northern tier of the county including Clarkston really doesn’t get a benefit.

Haven doesn’t know exactly where this thing stops. He’s not aware of all of the details here, but the township has requested that we be part of a class action to try and stop this proposal from being on the ballot. Haven said he knows he talked with Susan Joliat, or Karen Joliat, who is our Oakland County Commissioner about the vote by the commissioners. It was 32-7. She voted yes for it even though she said she won’t vote for it when it’s on the ballot. Haven asked why did she do that, and she said well, I got something for it. She said if she voted no, she would have been ostracized if you will from the content of this, but she said she was able to obtain for Clarkston at least one route into Clarkston from the south as part of their plan.

Haven said so, we’ll see how that plays out, but nevertheless, it will be on the ballot on November 8^th unless, and this was the other thing that Haven learned by studying this a little bit, the commissioners did consider and debate fiercely an opt out provision for the northern tier of communities and that was turned down. So, effectively, these communities will not receive much or any of the benefit from this transit system. We’ll still have to pay the bill, be part of paying the bill, OK.

Haven said so, Jerry Fisher, the township supervisor, has let us know that there is about ten communities that are in league to try and fight this thing, and a number that it would cost for that litigation is not clear, but the idea was that the larger communities would fund most of it, and the smaller communities like Clarkston would just have a smaller amount to participate in that legal action. It has to be done pretty quickly now because we’ve got the ballot coming, ballots will be complete September (looking toward Speagle, who said she was waiting to hear). Haven said within a month, so any legal action that takes place would have to happen pretty soon.

Haven said so this resolution was one, we were asked if we would like to participate. Generally, Smith originally wrote this one giving him jurisdiction to work on our behalf, and we agreed, given sort of Fisher’s direction, we thought our participation would be somewhere around $2,500. Again, at this time, that’s all we know, that we would agree to go to that and not to exceed that amount unless we took further action to do so. So, that’s why the resolution is in front of us. Haven asked if Smith had anything to add (unintelligible).

Smith said no, just that this was, as Haven alluded to, this was put together by ten or so communities. Springfield Township, Rose Township, these outward or northern communities that will not benefit from a bus system out here. Not likely, but there might be some users that would, certainly, but the overall feeling is that we would be paying for a service that’s going to benefit southern Oakland County. Very worthwhile service in southern Oakland County. It’s just something that a lot of the communities in the northern portion of Oakland County did not feel we would gain benefit from, so why should our taxpayers absorb this payment, this almost 1 mill increase. So, that was the thought. It may just be too little, too late, to fight this, but we just thought we would investigate it. The wording on this in the “now, therefore be it resolved” section of this came right from the township. The very last sentence Smith just added today to put a cap on it because there was a concern that the city manager might run amok he guesses with this, so we just put a limit on it at $2,500.

Haven thanked Smith and asked Ryan if he had any additional information or comment about this. Ryan said no, he thinks it’s a great long shot because to file a lawsuit now, and the ballot language is, we talked the other night, was due August 16^th, and the Board of Commissioners passed this just before that, he doesn’t know how soon, but they passed it pretty quickly, pretty close to August 16^th, he thinks, and there’s probably a ten-day window or a twelve-day window to try to get a circuit judge to issue an injunction or a stay on this. He knows there’s arguments about taxation and no benefit being received and that sort of thing, but it’s a decision that you folks have to make on behalf of the community. But if it doesn’t pass, if it doesn’t receive a majority vote in the county, then it will go down, it won’t happen. But they did remove the opt-out provision unfortunately, which has been the rule forever on these things, but that didn’t hold this time with the board, so it’s really, it’s up to you folks, it’s your decision to make, but it’s a real long shot.

Avery asked what is the basis, what’s the legal basis, for challenging the county commissioners’ right to put this on the ballot. Ryan said that the problem is that there’s no benefit being received by the people being taxed. Avery said that’s kind of a weak argument, because we all receive a benefit. Even though we’re not riding the bus, it’s less traffic, it’s less pollution, it helps people throughout the system here.

Casey said he has to agree here. It’s very short-sighted. He thinks regional transit is a long time coming. It has to start somewhere. He thinks we’re being extraordinarily short-sighted, and he can’t support the motion.

Wylie said it sounds like this resolution says that part of the money would be used to stop this from being placed on the ballot, but it sounds like maybe there’s other things that they want to do. It says, in this last sentence, where it says including, if appropriate, participation with other communities in litigation. So, it sounds like there’s other ideas that they want to do besides preventing this from being on the ballot. Haven said not other ideas, just participation with other communities in the same boat, defending. Smith said keeping it off the ballot. Haven said it’s a collective action, basically. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Wylie said really, that’s all, that’s what we’re trying to do. OK. Wylie said she agrees with Casey.

Fuller said he wonders if the regional transportation authority would provide more than just busses. Don’t they also provide like rides for elderly people, or people that are disabled? Haven said oh yeah, sure.

Amanda Wakefield said we have that in downtown (unintelligible crosstalk). She said at the end of West Washington there’s an apartment building, that house is like special needs on the first floor and then on the second floor is just regular housing, and they use the busses every day. And there’s a few elderly people in that building who use those busses every day. Fuller asked if that’s part of the SMART [Suburban Mobile Authority for Regional Transportation] system. Wakefield said yes, the SMART system.

Haven said they’re canning the old system and putting this one in its place. He thinks that’s the idea. This is an upgrade, that’s why the increase in costs. Wakefield said she didn’t know. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Fuller said the concept is (unintelligible) zero growth then is not accurate. Smith said (unintelligible) would be part of it, a lot more expensive. Haven said it’s hard to know. That’s the consensus if you will. Again, the details here elude him. He doesn’t know.

Rodgers said when Haven says it’s one mill, how does that equate to dollars or numbers for people in our town, in our city. (Laughter.) (Unintelligible crosstalk.) (More laughter.) Smith said honestly, what is it, $1,000, or he’s sorry, $1 per thousand in value, so if you have a $300,000 value house, you’d pay $30 more a year. Ryan said it would be $15, because it’s half of whatever your value is. Smith said half. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Ryan said your assessed value, one-half of your true cash value. So, a $300,000 house would be assessed at $150,000, so it would be $15. 1%. $150 maybe. No, he guessed it would be $15. 1% of $150,000 is – (interrupting Ryan), Smith said $150. Ryan said he doesn’t have a calculator. It would be a little less than 1%.

Avery said thinking long-term, we’ve got businesses in town that are having trouble getting employees (unintelligible) and we’ve also got parking problems. If we can use a transit system at some point, that could allow people, including employees, to come and go without having to drive up here and park and clog up our parking lots and streets (unintelligible).

Ryan said $150. A little less.

Haven said OK, just two other pieces of information that he just thought of. As of this afternoon (unintelligible), they’re having trouble getting an attorney, an attorney firm to actually litigate, and our decision tonight will inform the township, which will be tomorrow night. So, we’re kind of one day, you know, so they’ll hear our disposition from our resolution.

Haven asked if there were any other comments or questions or thoughts.

Pardee asked if what the township is wanting to do is to keep the citizens in Independence Township and Clarkston from voting on this. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Pardee said they don’t want it on the ballot. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Wylie said that’s exactly what they’re doing. They’re trying to prevent it from being on the ballot to try to prevent people from voting without having a vote. Haven said they are trying to stop what was started by the county commissioners who put this thing on the ballot, turn it around.

Rodgers asked if it would stay on the ballot for other communities. Smith said no. Rodgers said so it would be completely off the ballot. Smith said it’s either on or off. Haven agreed.

Fuller said this is the same thing that they did for the funding for the Detroit Art Museum [Institute] and that was a big issue with Macomb County but not Oakland County especially. Why should we pay for a Detroit museum? It’s a sense of (unintelligible) of what it’s about. Casey said (unintelligible) it’s bigger than the county. Fuller said it seems like they’re doing more and more of these types of proposals.

Smith said it would be the population total. It’s not Clarkston. Let’s say it comes on the ballot and Clarkston voters voted it down, it’s not like we can opt out of it. We would still have to, the overall population of Oakland County that will decide it, so if it’s 51% overall Oakland County, even if Clarkston voted it down, we would have to pay the tax. So, it’s going to be decided by the county in total on the population. So, you have a greater population in southern Oakland County, so it’s very likely it would pass anyways.

Fuller said that there’s a heck of a lot of people in southern Oakland County who do not ride the busses. (Someone said Rochester.) Fuller said if they’re there, and it’s a service, but they don’t ride them, so there’s a chance that, he doesn’t think it’s an easy pass.

Pardee said the people who are employed by Birmingham families, they in fact ride the bus into (unintelligible). Fuller said absolutely, but there are a lot of people who live in Berkley who do not ride the bus and they’ll say I don’t care, I don’t care about them. It’s the same people who don’t vote for school millages, who don’t vote for libraries, they don’t, I don’t go to the library, you know. I’m not voting for it. My kids aren’t in school. I won’t vote for it. It’s the same, kind of the same concept.

Avery said he just doesn’t feel like our money, our tax dollars, should go for that, to that. There’re so many other things we could be spending our money on. He appreciates the fact that Independence Township has a much larger tax base, and you know, if they feel like they want to fund it, they can go ahead and fund it (unintelligible). We’ve got better things to do. Haven said yes, like buying cake. (Laughter.) (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Fuller asked if they could have a motion to never bring up cake again. (Laughter.)

Haven said that he would entertain a motion one way or the other, to adopt or to (unintelligible crosstalk). Haven said all right, let’s move to bring it; then and we can vote it down if we don’t want it.

Haven asked who would move to adopt.

No response.

Haven said come on, somebody’s got to be brave enough. The courage of your convictions.

Fuller said so this is just to bring it forward. Haven said to bring it forward to vote on it.

Motion by Fuller. Second Rogers.

Haven asked if there was any further discussion.

No additional discussion.

Wylie, Haven, Rodgers, Fuller, Avery, and Casey voted no. The motion failed.

Agenda Item #14, Adjourn (Video time mark 1:29:10):

Haven said he would entertain a motion to adjourn.

Motion by adjourn by Wylie; second Casey.

Haven asked if there was any discussion.

No discussion.

Motion to adjourn by unanimous voice vote.

Resources:

• • Link to video recording:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ze06uzzkjvd801i/CityCouncil8%3A22%3A2022.mp4?dl=0
  • 08-22-2022 – City Council packet