April 22, 2024, City Council Meeting

Introduction:

Links to the video recording and the council packet are at the bottom of this post. Please note any errors or omissions in the comments. Anything noted in brackets was inserted by Clarkston Sunshine.

Agenda Item #1, Call to Order (Video time mark 0:00:01):

Sue Wylie said OK, everybody. It’s 7:00, and she’s going to call the meeting to order.

Agenda Item #2, Pledge of Allegiance (Video time mark 0:00:04):

Wylie asked everyone to rise, and they will say the Pledge of Allegiance.

Pledge said.

Wylie said her son asked her when she said she had a meeting tonight, he says make sure you practice the Pledge of Allegiance first (unintelligible). Wylie said she was all set. Wylie said you don’t know. She forgot. One day, she just blanked out. She couldn’t think of what to start, what to say.

Agenda Item #3, Roll Call (Video time mark 0:01:16):

Note: this was taken out of order from the published agenda. (Item #4 was done before Item #3).

Wylie said OK, so now they have Item #4, the roll call. Wylie asked Karen [DeLorge, city clerk] to please take the roll.

Sue Wylie, Gary Casey, Amanda Forte, Mark Lamphier, Ted Quisenberry, Laura Rodgers, and Peg Roth were present.

Wylie said it looks like everyone is here for the first time maybe in a while.

Wylie asked if Tom Ryan [city attorney] was coming today. Jonathan Smith [city manager] said his daughter had a baby this afternoon. (Approving noises.) Smith said it’s his fifth grandchild but the first for her. He wanted to be there. (Roth made an unintelligible comment.)

Agenda Item #4, Approval of Agenda (Video time mark 0:00:44):

Note: this was taken out of order from the published agenda. (Item #4 was done before Item #3).

Wylie said OK, they are on Item #3 [#4], approval of the agenda as written. Wylie said she needed a motion to approve the agenda as written. (Rodgers made an unintelligible comment to Wylie.) Wylie said no, roll call is after.

Motion by Forte.

Wylie asked if there was a second and said Rodgers is right; usually roll call is before. Wylie asked again if there is a second.

Second Rogers.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion on approving the agenda as presented.

No discussion.

Motion to approve the agenda as presented passed by unanimous voice vote.

Wylie said it is approved.

Agenda Item #5, Public Comments (Video time mark 0:01:57):

[Though public comments can sometimes irritate the city council, there is value to both the council and the public in hearing them. While they can’t eliminate public comments entirely without violating the Open Meetings Act, your city council has occasionally decided not to acknowledge public comments during a city council meeting unless the person submitting the comments also appears at the meeting (in-person or electronically) to personally read them. In the past, members of the public have been cut off for exceeding the city council’s arbitrary three-minute time limit (it’s arbitrary because no time limits are required by the Open Meetings Act).

If your public comments were submitted to the council but not read, or if you tried to make public comments but your comments were cut short, please email them to clarkstonsunshine@gmail.com and I will include them in my informal meeting summaries either under public comments or under the specific agenda item that you want to speak to.]

Wylie said Item #5 is Public Comments.

(Wylie read the rules for public comments.)

Wylie asked if anybody wanted to make a public comment.

Wylie recognized Roth for a comment. Wylie said she was looking at Chet [Pardee] thinking he was going to make a public comment. Roth said she was waiting for him too. (To Pardee), Wylie said by the way, welcome back, Chet. Pardee said he was going to give everybody a break tonight. Wylie said welcome back. Roth said he was just resting up for further meetings.

Roth said OK, just another reminder. The Sheriff Bouchard presentation to the public that Paul Brown and Roth are co-hosting together on May 16th at the Independence Township Hall. So, they’ll be talking about all things local, local things, daily topics, what’s going on in our community.

Wylie thanked Roth and asked if anybody else had a public comment to make.

No additional comments.

Agenda Item #6, FYI (Video time mark 0:03:03):

Wylie said OK. They’ll move on to Item #6, which is FYI. Wylie said let her get her packet open.

Item 6a – April 23^rd CIDL [Clarkston Independence District Library] Book Sale (Video time mark 0:03:10):

• • Friends Spring Book Sale flyer (Page 4/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said Clarkson Independence District Library is having a book sale which is starting tomorrow. Tuesday, April 23rd is a member preview night. Wednesday, April 24^th, it’s open to the public from 10:00 am to 8:30 [pm], and it’s also open to the public Thursday. Friday has half price books, and Saturday is a $5 bag sale. Check the time, so it looks like generally either 10:00 to 5:30, Saturday it’s 10:00 to 2:00.

Item 6b – April 27^th Oakland County No-Haz Collection Event (Video time mark 0:03:39):

• • NoHaz 2024 Collection Events (Page 5/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said also on public comments, she’s sorry, FYI. She has, she’s looking at the wrong, she’s sorry, that was the wrong thing, OK. Oakland County NoHaz collection event, and she believes that’s this Saturday, April 27th. Yeah, April 27th. And it is at the Oakland County campus. And if you haven’t been before and you’ve got paint or electronics or things like that accumulating in your house, it’s a great way to unload that stuff. And people in the City of the Village of Clarkston, we pay $15, is that right, which is a good deal, and anybody else would charge you a lot more to get rid of those things.

Item 6c – May 8^th Clarkston Community Awards Breakfast (Video time mark 0:04:24):

• • 39^th Annual Clarkston Community Awards flyer (Page 7/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said the next FYI is the Clarkston Community Awards Breakfast, which, and let her get her notes out, it’s Wednesday, May 8th, 2024. It’s from 7:30 am to 9:00 am. It’s $20 a person. It’s at the Clarkston Community Church on Clarkston Road. To register, you can register online, www.clarkston.org, and reservations and payment must be made by Monday, April 29^th. That’s a week from today. Seating is limited. There are people in the city who are going to be recognized that day. It’s a worthy event. They have things like Citizen of the Year, Youth of the Year, Collaboration of the Year, Business of the Year. There’s a lot of worthy awards and a lot of important work that’s been done by people in the area, which is, it’s nice to recognize them.

Item 6d – May 11^th Angels’ Place Race (Video time mark 0:05:18):

• • Angels’ Place Race flyer (Page 8/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said and the last FYI is May 11^th, the Angels’ Place Race. Wylie said they probably know, council probably remembers, they had Paul Maxwell come there to present and get permission to hold this event in Clarkston. It’s going to be, registration is already open. It’s May 11th, 2024. It starts at Saint Daniels Church and it’s going through downtown and the surrounding area. There’s a one-mile Family Fun Walk. There’s a 5K Bruce Clifton Run and Walk named after Bruce Clifton, who was from, part of the city. There’s also a 10K run. Let’s see, you can register at angelsplacerace.org and if you’re not familiar with Angels’ Place Race or Angels’ Place, it’s a nonprofit charity that provides homes and support for people with developmental disabilities.

Wylie asked if anybody else had anything for FYI.

No comments.

Agenda Item #7, Sheriff Report for March 2024 (Video time mark 0:06:15):

• • City of the Village of Clarkston Monthly Report from Lieutenant Richard Cummins (Page 9/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said OK, the next item they have is #7, the sheriff’s report for March 2024, and they have that in their packet. She didn’t see Sergeant Ashley.

Wylie asked if anyone had any comments. She guessed they couldn’t ask a question because he’s not there, but maybe if they have a question, Smith could pass it on.

No questions.

Agenda Item #8, City Manager Report for 04-22-2024 (Video time mark 0:06:45)

• • City Manager Report, April 22, 2024 (Page 10/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said OK, hearing none, she will move on to Item #8, which is the city manager’s report. Again, it’s included in their packet.

Wylie asked Smith if he wanted to say anything besides what’s written there or to add to this. Smith said he didn’t think so. Wylie said she thinks it’s pretty self-explanatory.

Wylie asked if anyone had any questions or comments on the city manager’s report. She asked Pardee to hang on. Wylie asked if anyone on council had a comment.

No comments.

Wylie recognized Pardee for a comment.

Pardee thanked Wylie and asked Smith if he could explain what horizontal cutting is. Smith said so, there is a method that’s fairly new technology where they can, with a saw blade that’s going horizontal to the slab, so if there’s a slab that’s kicked up and the next going is, you know, down, they just come in and horizontally cut that slab that’s heaved. They will only cut a maximum of two inches. They prefer not to even go that much because the four-inch slab, if you cut two inches off, it’s not, it’s going to weaken what’s left. But they have this technology, they can flush cut right to the surface of the adjacent slab and angle that as far as necessary to achieve ADA [Americans with Disabilities Act] compliance. So, in a small, you know, crack, they only have to go back eight inches. If it’s an inch and a half, they have to go back eighteen inches to achieve ADA compliance. So, it’s just another alternative before just ripping up the concrete and replacing it, which is, you know, labor intensive. So, he’s getting a quote on that, and the City of Birmingham uses this exclusively. The ex-city engineer, if you knew Melissa Coatta, she’s in Birmingham. She was always a big believer of this, and now she’s implemented this in Birmingham. They’re doing a lot of that in Birmingham. This horizontal cutting in lieu of just immediately jackhammering the slab and removing the slab that’s otherwise good. Now, if the slab is all cracked, alligatored, it’s not going to hold up, it’s got to be a slab that’s in good condition. That’s the one, you know, caveat. But it’s a good alternative. They’re going to get prices on it, and Smith is hoping that they can get that done. The advice is to do the horizontal cutting first and then what’s left that they cannot do, then it’s a candidate for tear out/replacement. So, Smith is hoping to do the horizontal cutting. He’ll bring a quote of those to council. Horizontal cutting this fiscal year before July 1, and then what cannot be horizontally cut and just has to be replaced. Then they would do that in like phase two in the new fiscal year. So that’s kind of (unintelligible). Wylie said good. Hopefully it’s a good alternative.

Wylie asked if anybody else had questions for Smith about the city manager’s report?

An unidentified woman asked Smith if there were just those two items that are up there or are there others. Smith said oh, so Buffalo parking spaces, they have a lot of questions about parking spaces painting on Buffalo, as well as West, he’s sorry, East Washington. So, he’s doing some painting there.

Smith said and then they’re actually going to repaint the city parking lot at no cost because it didn’t hold up well, and he’s standing behind this work, so that will get repainted as well.

Smith said crosswalk painting, that’s something that should have been done two weeks ago, in his mind. But so, they’ve got tentatively marked for, it’s going to go, but they just haven’t done it yet, and then the snowplow grass damage is, it should be all done by now. If somebody has grass that’s been damaged by the city snowplow that hasn’t been repaired, let him know, but they think they’re all done with that.

Roth said Smith did a good job on Madison. Smith said good.

Wylie asked if there were any other questions or comments about the city manager’s report.

Roth said she did have a question for Smith. They talked last year about, on Buffalo, the parking, the amount of parking. Is that going to be changed or will that stay the same. Smith said the amount of parking spaces. Roth said yes. Smith said it’s going to drop. Roth said it is going to drop. It was crazy how that was laid out. Smith said well, you know, obviously their goal was to squeeze in as many as they can. Roth said they did. Smith said the guy got a little too aggressive, he said he squeezed them in, but it was little too aggressive, too tight to the driveways and vehicles. Being a fairly narrow road, there just was no room to swing into the driveways. Roth said great. Smith said especially driving a pickup truck. So, he’s going to erase all the lines, erase his, he basically sprays black paint for the yellow paint – Roth said right – (continuing) Smith said and then start all over again. So, end to end on that street, they’ll probably lose four parking spots, but it would be safer for (unintelligible). Roth said right. The unidentified woman said thank you.

Agenda Item #9 – Motion: Acceptance of the Consent Agenda as Presented (Video time mark 0:12:06):

• • 03-25-2024 – Final Minutes (Page 11/46 of the council packet)
  • 04-08-2024 – Draft Minutes (Page 13/46 of the council packet)
  • 04-22-2024 – Treasurer’s Report (page 15/46 of the council packet)
  • 04-09-2024 – Revenue and Expenditure Report for the Period Ending 03-31-2024 (Page 16/46 of the council packet)
  • Carlisle/Wortman March Invoices (Page 25/46 of the council packet)
  • Thomas J. Ryan, P.C. March Invoices (Page 27/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said OK, they’ll move on to Item #8, which is a Motion for Acceptance of Consent Agenda as Presented on April 22nd, 2024.

Wylie asked for a motion to accept the consent agenda as presented.

Motion by Roth; second Forte.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion.

Wylie said actually, she had a discussion about it, and she would like to pull this off the consent agenda before they approve it. This is under Tom Ryan’s bill. She thinks it’s actually the third page. It’s under where he’s got professional services. She did not print up the whole thing. He’s got one page, which is, she thinks, cases in front of court and then professional services. It’s for March 28th, 2024. He’s got written down preparation of first draft of HDC [Historic District Commission] ordinance amendment for civil infraction penalties and she wishes he was there. Since he’s not, she’d like to have this pulled off because she would like to know under what authorization he wrote that ordinance, because that’s not what they asked him to write. Smith said right. Wylie said they asked him, at the February 26th meeting, they asked him to write an ordinance regarding allowing our ordinance officer to issue tickets and which would allow fines for those tickets. Instead, he came with an entirely different ordinance about the HDC, and that was not requested, and Wylie would like that pulled off until it’s at another meeting where they can talk about that.

Wylie said so, she would like to make, she guesses she would amend the consent, acceptance of the consent agenda as presented with that item removed.

Smith said so, the question Wylie is talking about this $142.50 entry. Wylie said yes. Smith said so, is the rest of his invoice payable. Wylie said she doesn’t have any issues with the rest of it. Just that one. Smith said OK, so they’ll pull that out and not pay that one line item until they have a chance to talk to him about it. Wylie said OK.

Wylie said so, she’s trying to do this since Smith says he’s just going to pull it off. She thinks they can approve the consent agenda as presented with that exception.

Roth said she would make the motion. Wylie said to make that amendment, to her first. Wylie asked if Forte would allow that also. Forte nodded. Wylie said OK.

Motion to approve the consent agenda with modification passed by unanimous voice vote.

Wylie said OK, that passes. That’s approved.

Agenda Item #10, Unfinished Business [Old Business] (Video time mark 0:15:05):

Item 10a – First Reading: Proposed Ordinance Changes to Enable Our Building & Code Enforcement Officials to Issue Citations (With Input from T. Ryan [city attorney]) (Video time mark 0:15:07):

• • Ordinance to Amend the City of the Village of Clarkston Municipal Code, Chapter 10 Rules of Construction: General Penalty; Section 10.11 Civil Infraction; Local Officials to Issue Citation (Page 30/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said Item #10, Unfinished Business. This is the First Reading: Proposed Ordinance Changes to Enable Our Building & Code Enforcement Officials to Issue Citations (With Input from Tom Ryan). So, he’s not here. She’s not sure what input. Wylie asked Smith if he had any discussions with Ryan.

Smith said he did have a discussion. He asked Ryan in his absence if they should go ahead and hold the first reading of this, and he said absolutely, it’s just the first reading. Wylie said OK. Smith said if council has any objections to any piece of it, they can remove it or change it for the second reading. Wylie said OK.

(Wylie said she thought she needed to read the whole thing and read the ordinance.)

Wylie said she didn’t know if they have to do this date. Smith said, no, that would be the final. Wylie said the final reading, OK.

(Wylie continued to read from the ordinance.)

Wylie said and that has to just be signed.

Wylie said yeah, she would like to get some feedback from Ryan because she doesn’t understand the legal language, and she’s not seeing exactly how it’s, she doesn’t understand how it’s allowing our enforcement officer to issue citations or tickets.

Wylie asked if anyone else had a question.

Roth said she agrees. She thinks it’s not specific. It doesn’t really say anything. And again, she still thinks they should have something that says if you don’t do this, this is what this ticket will be for. She thinks it’s too ambiguous. (Wylie made an unintelligible comment.) Roth said it doesn’t even have an ordinance number on it. Wylie agreed.

(Casey made an unintelligible comment.) Wylie said that’s what happens. Roth said but it’s an amendment to an ordinance. So, it must have a number. Smith said yes, he doesn’t have the existing ordinance number listed, but Smith talked to Ryan about this, and he said keep in mind that the building department can issue citations today. The building department. So, if somebody goes out to a site that was not approved and they’ve already poured their footings or something, they can not only issue a red tag to stop, a stop work order, they could in a severe case, and Smith doesn’t, in his time here, he doesn’t think they’ve ever done this. But Ryan says they could actually write a citation. They are authorized under the ordinances to do that. So, he says really, all they’re doing here is adding very simply, city code enforcement officers. So, they’re adding to an existing ordinance that empowers the building department to write tickets, citations. Now, the code enforcement officers will all be the same. So, it’s just adding this. It’s a really, pretty, very minor change, but he agrees. They talked about, to Roth’s point, they talked about the need for some kind of fee schedule or fine – Roth said she kept calling it a schedule. Smith said fine schedule, yeah. So that, you know, if you have junk car in your driveway and you’re not removing it, what would be the penalty – Roth said it’s this much – (continuing), Smith said that kind of thing. Smith said so, he thought when they talked to Ryan initially about drafting this, Smith thought he got that, that that was something they wanted to do. So, Smith will have to go back and talk to him about that.

Wylie said she thinks he’s also, if he’s saying they already have the ordinance that allows the building official to do it, she’d like him to show them what exactly that is and what’s being changed and. Something more specific, like a schedule, or she doesn’t know, Pardee a number of times referred to a scale where the fines get higher as time goes on, the longer that they, these people don’t fulfill their obligations.

Pardee said right. He keeps calling it escalation. Wylie agreed. Pardee said and that means it’s going to grow. Wylie agreed. Pardee said until you do what you got to do.

Wylie said well, she’s not sure if they still have a first reading because she’s not sure – Smith said they don’t have to. Wylie said Casey’s the only one who doesn’t look (gesturing), because Casey’s more used to legal documents than the rest of them. He’s kind of looking like this is good.

Casey said it doesn’t matter to him if they postpone it. Wylie said OK.

Quisenberry said he thought what they decided, before Wylie even read it, was they were going to pass on this until Ryan’s in attendance. So that would mean this does not count as the first reading. Smith and Roth agreed.

Smith said so, they can, he guesses, postpone or table this until the next meeting and he’ll ask Ryan to come with additional details. In the past, they’ve seen a document where he’s modifying an existing ordinance – Wylie agreed – (continuing), Smith said where he brings the existing ordinance with red lines with what’s coming out maybe green text showing what’s coming in. That makes it, you know, painfully obvious, what changes are happening. Wylie agreed. Smith said he can ask Ryan to do that. Wylie said OK. Smith said Ryan was planning on being here this afternoon. Wylie said she understands.

Lamphier asked if they had an enforcement officer right now. Smith said they do, yes. It’s part of Code Enforcement Services of Carlisle/Wortman. They’re our building department, Code Enforcement Services. And our code enforcement officer as well. Lamphier said OK. Smith said they all report through Code Enforcement.

Lamphier said he’s wondering if they should give the code enforcement officer the ability to write a citation without approval from the council. He thinks the council should approve it first. Wylie said that relates to what they’re trying to do, that’s what they’re trying to do. Lamphier said he’s just saying that the code enforcement officer writes that citation or something. He thinks they should – (interrupting Lamphier), Wylie asked if Lamphier meant each individual one. Lamphier said yes. Rodgers said she thinks they have a schedule where it’s, you know, obvious that if you do this, then this is how much you pay. Maybe they don’t have to approve each and every one.

Casey said don’t they send a letter first. Smtih said yes, they always send a warning letter first. Absolutely, it’s part of the process. Casey said OK, yeah.

Wylie said they have all sorts of codes and they, there’s codes that they look at and they can say, OK, if the grass is maybe six inches. They can measure at six inches. Junk car cannot remain in the driveway for X number of weeks, months, she doesn’t know what it is. You can’t leave garbage like a hot water, old hot water heater in your driveway. They can look that stuff up. So, she thinks a lot of it’s pretty straightforward. They can talk about that.

Quisenberry said they did, yeah, he thinks a while, at one of the other meetings, and he doesn’t think that they should do that because that’s getting dangerously close to crossing over governmental responsibilities. They’re legislators and not enforcement, and if they then start now putting themselves in a position that they’re going to write the tickets, they’ve now crossed over into a different branch of government. And he thinks what they want to do is give the code enforcement officer the authority to do his or her job, right. Send the warning letter, write the ticket they have to, and let it go through court and not get involved in that sort of process.

Roth said she thinks that maybe what Lamphier is saying though, and she does agree, she thinks they’re agreeing on the same thing, is until they can see something that’s more specific, as she keeps referring to the schedule, Ryan or Smith said that those are available in different areas. So, then she thinks that would clarify maybe. Is that what Lamphier is saying? It’s too, it’s just too vague. And what’s the difference between what is already being done and this new ordinance, which she doesn’t see – (interrupting Roth), Quisenberry said that the city code enforcement officer is added on to it. Roth said so, right, but they’re already essentially doing it. So, she guesses that – (interrupting Roth), Quisenberry said not the city code enforcement officer – (interrupting Quisenberry), Lamphier said they still have the ability to – (interrupting Lamphier), Casey said there’s an appeal process. Quisenberry said the city code enforcement, as of today, can only write warnings, can’t do this here. That’s what the intent of this 10.11 C is, is to give that person the ability to write a violation the same as the city building official. Roth said OK, she just keeps thinking it, or keeps going back to, she thinks it needs to be more clarified. Quisenberry said visual.

Lamphier said so, you say there was an appeal process. What does that look like. Quisenberry said it’s the courts. It’s a civil infraction. You go to court. Casey said but then they will be warned ahead of time and given some chance to remediate. Lamphier said OK.

Quisenberry said he thinks that’s what Ryan was doing with, where you mentioned about his 3/26 bill, he’s talking about ordinance amended for civil infraction penalties. So, maybe he was starting to work on what this piece, or fine schedule is, but it’s just not done yet. Roth said it’s only different language in there, so no, she disagrees with Quisenberry on that. Wylie said this, that bill is for what was presented at the last meeting. Roth said it wasn’t even discussed. Wylie said HDC ordinance, and that was not what they asked him to do. Quisenberry said but isn’t that what she’s been, and they’ve all been asking for, is civil infraction penalties, a rate scale? Wylie said yeah, but they never talked about the HDC. It was very specific about maintenance issues of how, at homes, and Smith in particular has been talking about this for quite a while, and Ryan said he understood, and then he wrote an entirely different ordinance. It was nothing, this was released, addresses the construction and maintenance of the house, not HDC rules, which is not what they asked him to do. Roth said (unintelligible) and he said in the meeting that it was actually brought up on a Friday that they had, that this was changed, that Smith and Ryan had a discussion and they changed, and that’s how that came up at the previous meeting.

Wylie said she prefers, if they’re talking about things with Ryan – Roth said just leave it – (continuing), Wylie said she prefers to do it when he’s here.

Wylie asked if there was anybody else on council that has anything to say on this 10a? Because she knows Pardee has something else to say.

No additional comments from council.

Wylie recognized Pardee for a comment.

Pardee said yes, he kind of remembers when Stacey [Kingsbury, the contracted code enforcement officer that Smith advised has refused to do any more work for Clarkston until she can penalize residents with civil infractions] would be at the podium on a once a quarterly basis, and in the packet would be her write ups, and what that did was give council and public some exposure to what she was working on. Pardee asked Smith if it was once a quarter, maybe it only lasted – Smith said maybe only a couple of times. Pardee said it was a little bit like HDC. They come once a quarter.

Wylie asked if anybody else had a comment.

Wylie recognized an unidentified woman for a comment.

The unidentified woman said yeah, the code enforcement officer, is this a person from Carlisle Group who is driving down the road and spot something or are they walking around houses and back in behind and – Smtih said they cannot walk up on property. The unidentified woman said private property. Smith said they have to stay on a sidewalk. The unidentified woman said OK. Smith said unless the homeowner invites them onto it. Otherwise, they cannot go on – (unintelligible crosstalk from council members). Smith said so, that’s a little bit of, the challenge of that job is you have to look at everything from the street.

Wylie asked if anyone else wanted to make a comment or question.

No additional comments.

Agenda Item #11, New Business (Video time mark 0:28:21):

Item 11a – 1^st Quarter Activity Report from the Historic District Commission (Video time mark 0:28:23):

Wylie said OK, they are moving on to, that was 10a. They’re moving on to Item #11 Discussion. First Quarter Activity Report from the Historic District Commission [HDC], and they have Dr. Moon here.

Casey asked if they had a motion on the table there. Wylie said she didn’t think they have to table because it’s not actually a motion. It’s just a first reading. Casey said OK, All right. Wylie asked if he felt like, they don’t have a lawyer there, she’s not a lawyer. Casey said no, it’s all right.

Wylie said yes, and if everybody on council got a packet from Mike [Moon]. Moon said everybody got – Wylie said here it is, thank you. Casey said they appreciate that. (Moon walked across the room from the podium and handed a copy of the report to Smith.) Smith thanked Moon.

Moon said again, his apologies for not getting it into the packet as previously stated, anyway, so they didn’t look at it ahead of time, but he hopes that each of them have had a chance to look at this. There are only six cases that they discussed that actually led to a certificate of appropriateness or a memorandum of administrative approval. (Casey made unintelligible comments to Lamphier.) Moon said actually half of those were memoranda, which they do in cases where there are exigent circumstances.

Wylie asked Moon if he would mind explaining the difference. He might explain the difference between the COA [certificate of appropriateness] and the – Moon said that’s what he was doing. The certificate of appropriateness comes from an application to the entire commission. They discuss it, they decide if it meets the Department of the Interior Standards for Rehabilitation, they make a motion regarding that, and they all vote on it. It passes or it doesn’t. And the memorandum is something that they started doing, he wants to say three or four years ago because these circumstances would come up in between meetings, and they have two cases right here, he believes two, yeah, two cases right here for roof replacements that came up in between meetings. They’ll see they had one roof replacement that they gave a COA. That’s because he came up at a time right before their January meeting, OK, so they could discuss it, vote on it, very easy proposition. All of these were leaky roofs that needed to be dealt with, you know, in a very timely manner. So, the other two, let’s see here, 52 North Main and 380 Depot Road. Again, leaky roofs, really needed to be repaired, replaced, but these were between meetings.

Moon said so, what they did, this, they devised this method to handle these cases so that people did not have to wait until the next meeting so they could handle it in a very timely manner and get (unintelligible) so they could then do the work, and the way that this operates is it comes to them through Smith that someone has this problem. They usually, they had made an application, but they need short-term relief, so usually the chairman and at least one other commission member, or that’s the way it usually has worked, that the chairman and one other commission member. But if the chairman isn’t present, at least two commission members, sometimes three, if they’re available, they’ll review the material, make sure that it complies with their standards, and a memorandum of approval then is issued. And this is usually then taken care of in a matter of a couple of days, if possible. Again, two or three members of the commission will go by the location and look at it, although these types of problems are usually pretty cut and dry. There’s a leaky roof. There’s really nothing that they can see. And it’s usually a change of what they call like for like. The same type of shingles. That may possibly be different colors, which they don’t deal with, and it’s usually a very, very easy proposition. So therefore, they can take care of these very quickly and people can get on with getting their roofs replaced.

Moon said so, it’s something they have to deal with, but they try to make it as easy as possible. Like he said, they, because these things are coming up with some regularity and they didn’t have any way to deal with it other than bring it to a meeting. So, they would say, well, do they need to have a special meeting and then try to get at a different time rather than their regular meeting, trying to get a quorum of members of the commission together to discuss this. They came up with this.

Wylie thanked Moon and asked him if there was anything else he wanted to talk about. Moon said he thinks everything is pretty clear, you know, unless someone has questions – Wylie said she thinks they have a few questions from council.

Wylie recognized Roth.

Roth said yes, she does. She just noticed that 9, she sees there was a phone call in Ryan’s billing for Moon about 9 Miller, and 9 Miller is not in there. She noticed the last time Moon was here, it wasn’t in there either. Moon said he doesn’t recall what that was. There has been some ongoing issues with 9 Miller in which work was done that was not brought to, they’ve had several COA’s granted and then work was done, or that may be why Moon would have called him.  Or that that may be, this was probably very shortly after Jim Meloche [former HDC chair] resigned. Wylie said this is March 7^th. About a month and a half ago. (Moon made an unintelligible comment.) Wylie said if the billing is right. Roth agreed. Moon said this issue had not been resolved that this work was done. Historic 100-year-old windows had been removed. Again, Meloche, the previous chairperson, actually saw some of those out on the street. Roth said he took them out of the garbage. Moon said yeah and took them. Salvaged them. But a number of them had been already carted off. So, there was an issue, and he has checked in with Ryan to see if is there anything more to be done with that because it’s just, it’s on their agendas, it’s kind of an unresolved issue.

Roth asked if the file was ever found. She has asked for that file a couple times and it’s just disappeared. (To Smith), Roth said she was going to check with Mr. Moon to see if maybe he knew where it was. Smith said they have not been able to locate it. The general street file. The historic district, they have quite a bit of records. Moon said they had some records that Meloche had kept for his own purposes.

Roth said so there are two different files then, one that would be here and – (interrupting Roth), Smith said well, the Historic District Commission has kind of always kept theirs separate from the street files. Eventually, at some point they’d like all this to go into the street file. Building permits and HDC permits. All of that should go into the street file for records. The ideal scenario, the ideal process, but street file itself for 9 Miller has not surfaced. No, it’s just gone.

Roth asked Moon if he also didn’t know where the file is either. Moon said he can tell Roth that working on the survey that his wife, Nancy, and he have done a lot of work on this survey. They have used the street files for information on houses for the survey and they have found that many, he doesn’t know if he would say one-third or more possibly, of the street files have no information in them. There is nothing there in a lot of them.

Forte asked what is the street file for? What does that mean? Wylie asked what is the street file? Moon said street files are in that room in file cabinets. Each address has a folder. But a lot of the folders are empty, so Smith (unintelligible cross talk on council).

Rodgers asked what’s in the folder, like permits, or when you do renovations, what goes in those folders? Moon said plans (and gestured towards Smith). Smith said the street file was originally set up when the city came into being, and they put in those filing cabinets a hanging folder for every address in the city. And then over time, as work is done on the house, or they’re requesting changes, maybe they go to ZBA [Zoning Board of Appeals] for a taller fence or whatever, any of that action taken on that house will go into that. Change of ownership. Anything that’s taken place should go in that file, and that’s like the single place where they keep everything on that address. They have, a lot of times, they’ll have people calling them saying they just moved to 123, you know, Main Street, they’d like to see their street file. Well, sometimes it’s a big disappointment because there’s nothing in there if the previous homeowner just didn’t do a lot of work on the house. But other times, the files are three inches thick. It just depends on the address. It’s all common information. Anybody wants to see the street file, they’re welcome to come in there and look at them.

Wylie said it sounds like those HDC files ought to be here in one location. Moon said well, the HDC has never been responsible for keeping any of the files. They have their own. Each individual commissioner, and he knows he’s talked to past commissioners, have kept their own records with their own notations about individual cases that have come up with the commission. Wylie said so, he doesn’t have any of the files, like COAs or – Moon said the COAs are there. Smith said they’re in a binder in the office. Wylie said OK. Smith said but what they need to do is, in addition to being in a binder so it’s a one stop shop where you can see all the COAs, they should also be, they should make a copy and put them in the street file. Wylie said right. Smith said so that street file is complete. Wylie said OK. Roth said otherwise it really doesn’t serve any purpose. Smith agreed. Roth said especially if it’s missing. Moon said they found some addresses, the file had much information, just a wealth of information on it, and some like he mentioned before it before, some (unintelligible). Wylie said OK. Moon said but they felt it necessary to go through each one to make sure that they were not missing any information.

Roth said OK, so the fact that the 9 Miller is just missing is not of any consequence or – Smith said it’s very concerning just from a from a process standpoint, what happened to that file. Is it just coincidence there’s a lot of interest in 9 Miller and the activities that have taken place at that house, is it just a coincidence that that’s the one missing? He doesn’t know, but – Forte asked which one is this. Roth said if you turn left on Miller, it’s the first house on the left. (Unintelligible conversation between Rodgers and Forte.) Roth said right next to the B & B. Pardee said it looks like they take very good care of it. Roth said yes, they do. Pardee said they just don’t follow the rules. Moon agreed.

Wylie asked Roth if she was all set with her question. Roth said yes, she was all set.

Wylie said she thought Quisenberry had a comment or a question. Quisenberry said a couple of them.

Quisenberry said MOA, memorandum of application. When an applicant gets that response from you, can they then go ahead and begin the work. Moon said that’s their go ahead. Quisenberry said just as if they had gotten the COA. Moon said their go ahead. Quisenberry said so, is there then a process that you guys would then, what then has to happen for it to gravitate from MOA to COA because they’ve already started the process then? Moon said this takes the place of the COA, and it’s only for, as he mentioned, cases of – Quisenberry said an urgency – (continuing), Moon said very easy, very simple. A like for like replacement of a roof. That’s been the most common situation. Wylie said maybe that’s one piece of siding or something like that, perhaps. Moon said that could be a possibility too, or if you’re repainting the side of your house and you have some rotten clapboards and you want to replace five clapboards, you know, and you’re right in the middle of doing it, you know, it’s ridiculous to make people wait until their next meeting to do something like that. So that’s, you know, that’s why they devised this. Quisenberry said but the COA might not ever be issued. Moon said no, it wouldn’t.

Quisenberry said and the second point was Moon mentioned something during his discussion that, or there was a time question about on Tom Ryan’s bill of a conversation Moon had with him and then Ryan billed us for it. That piqued Quisenberry’s interest about who is allowed to give Tom Ryan work that he’s going to then bill us with? Can a planning commissioner or somebody from the historic district, are they authorized to call Tom Ryan and trigger work for him to do that we’re going to have to pay for that we don’t know about. Wylie said they actually had some rules about this some years ago. Smith said it’s a very appropriate question. Roth said yes, it’s very good. Moon said he might say that HDC, they have their own budget, and so, there’s in the past – (interrupting Moon), Quisenberry said but the item that they saw here, he’s billing us for a call that Moon had and that’s problematic. (Pointing at Smith), Quisenberry said he didn’t think anybody except Smith or the clerk should be able to give Ryan work that he’s going to then bill us for. Smith said well, because he’s responsible for the budget, so if it goes over budget then, you know, the finger is going to be pointed at Smith. So, Smith does like to know that. There have been times way in the past where, it was actually Dave Bihl when he was chairperson, he would call Smith every time before he called Tom Ryan and said he does have a legal matter, he’d like to talk to Ryan, is Smith OK with Bihl calling him. And that’s the process by, it started when Meloche was involved with 9 Miller, and there were a lot of phone calls at that one time. There were just so many. Smith thinks that maybe the very first time Meloche asked Smith for his approval, but then it just kind of cascaded into a number of phone calls. Quisenberry said he thinks that that should be clarified that nobody can call him to prompt him to do any work unless Smith knows about it, and that would be anybody outside the city or outside of this body and Smith. Wylie said Ryan does call her sometimes and asks her to call him. Quisenberry said that’s entirely different. Wylie agreed. Quisenberry said the third item, so that that should be clarified that anybody outside any of our subdivisions or satellite, whatever you want to call them, can’t just call him up there.

Quisenberry said so, the third is another thing that Moon mentioned about the street files and all that information and the files that the HDC members have themselves, their personal files and stuff that aren’t here, Quisenberry is thinking that is going to be an issue, a problem, as far as FOIA [Freedom of Information Act]. How would any of those records that any historic district committee member keeps themselves of official business as a subdivision of the city, how does, how do they know what they have that they would then be required, because there is a record of it that there, they would be required as part of a FOIA. Moon said those would have to be released as part a FOIA request minus any personal notes or whatever might have been, happened. Quisenberry said no, he doesn’t think so. No, he thinks that if any member of that committee during a meeting, right, is writing personal notes on something regarding city business, that’s FOIA-able. Moon said he doesn’t think so. (Unintelligible crosstalk among council members.) Moon said for example, he might write down on his notes, they’re talking about a particular case, and he might write down this might, may be similar to such and such as case, a different homeowner, a different location and all, and he might write that down. That shouldn’t be available to someone who is looking at the initial case because this is somebody else’s home, somebody else’s property. (Casey made an unintelligible comment.) Quisenberry said well, it’s something that they’re going to want to get a legal clarification on because he’s almost positive it is. It is a city record that, and it’s notes that would be available, that would be accessible. Moon said only if it applies to the particular case that the FOIA was issued for.

Roth said well, if you made separate notes on, she means, if you’re looking at, if she’s understanding what Moon is saying, if he’s looking at a home and he’s making notes about something else on that particular piece of paper – (interrupting Roth), Moon said that it is similar to – (continuing), Roth said then he would to use a separate book or something. Your notes would go in here (gesturing to the hypothetical notebook), but your paper, which is what she understood would be in the street file. That’s why she was so surprised first of all, it’s gone. But she also pulled the street file on her Church Street home and it’s ten years behind. She was just curious like, what are these street files for, and if Moon is keeping his own, then she’s confused as to the accountability for what’s being done, which is basically what (gesturing toward Quisenberry) he is reiterating. Moon said again, the HDC has never been responsible for keeping files.

Rodgers is wondering if maybe they should. Not responsible for keeping them, but responsible for putting their information in them. Roth agreed. Rodgers said like not necessarily being responsible for them, that’s a city thing, but – (interrupting Rodgers), Moon said well, again, as Smith said earlier, those files were never for, they were not set up for HDC material. Wylie said but if the HDC is part, if any HDC hearing or determination is part of what has happened to a house, it sounds like it should be. Moon said it’s in the COA. Wylie said but it’s also, maybe should be in the house, you know, history of the street file. Moon said the COAs could, if somebody wants to take the COAs which are kept separately, if they want to put them in those (gesturing toward the file room), they can do that.

Smith said that sounds like something they need to do, because if you look at some of the street files in there going back, it’s been a few years, and Smith doesn’t know who synched these up at some point in time, but if you go back, you know, maybe you’ll see (unintelligible). Moon said you can find (unintelligible). Smith said you can find them in the street file. Moon said you can find an occasional COA in there. Smith said so, somebody did the due diligence to make sure that that was doubled, if they had to make a copy of it. And that’s easily enough done. They could just Xerox copy every COA in the book for the last three or four or five years and then put those duplicates in the street file. It’s duplication, he agrees, but it allows for a complete record there.

Wylie recognized Forte for a question.

Forte said on the survey that you guys are working on like, aren’t you guys accumulating old records like for – (interrupting Forte), Moon said they got copies of old records and those are all being downloaded to the digital record being done at the library. Forte said OK. Moon said so that all of that material would be available online from the library website. Forte said OK, awesome.

Forte said and then is there any way to link, she’s sorry if she’s, like, asking too many things. Is there any way to link that to, like, what they have here? Because it seems like that’d be a great resource to residents, but if it’s already there, it seems like all of this stuff should be in one spot. Moon said if it’s already there and available through the library’s website, he doesn’t know if it’s necessary to be anywhere else. Casey said he thought it should.

Roth said why would it be at the library then and not here. Forte said it’s just for historic residents, right? Wylie said they’re using their storage here. Moon said what was colloquially referred to as The Walking Tour that Sue Basinger put together a number of years ago, OK? That is still available, however, the software that was used for the quote Walking Tour is no longer supported. It’s too old. But it, what was there is still available, OK, and this has always been available on the library’s website. So, this is an extension of updating then of that, the survey forms, along with photographs and such, will be available then as The Walking Tour on the library website.

Roth said but that’s not really the same thing as what they’re talking about. Moon agreed and said that’s what he’s talking about. Roth said right. (Unintelligible crosstalk between Roth and Wylie). Moon said the COAs would be there as a resource for the commission members and for homeowners to see COAs. So, for example, you have a new homeowner, they can go on the website, look up their house, and they can see what work was approved by the commission. Quisenberry said supposedly. It may not be, or it sounds to him – (interrupting Quisenberry), Moon said it’s what’s been approved – (continuing), Quisenberry said it sounds to him sometimes it was put in, sometimes it wasn’t. Moon said in where. Quisenberry said any records regarding a house that they in the city had knowledge of. Sometimes those records were put in and sometimes they weren’t.

Wylie said it’s possible though the COA book has everything. Roth said no. (Unintelligible crosstalk). Quisenberry said that’s what they were saying. Smith said he’s not comfortable that COA book is complete. Roth said of COAs. (Unintelligible crosstalk.)

Wylie said she had a question. This list is showing the summary of the COAs and the memoranda. Were there any other people who applied for work that were denied? Moon said no. Wylie said OK, so this is everything. Moon said everything that was applied for. Wylie said OK, thank you. (Casey made an unintelligible comment.)

Wylie asked if anyone else on council had a question or comment.

Quisenberry said yes. He thinks that they need to kind of be careful what they decide as far as the HDC notes and what Mr. Moon was talking about, what he sends over to the library, because if we are asked for some documents, he thinks that they want to be kind of, be careful. Documents, we don’t get what he’s sending over to the library and all that sort of stuff. We don’t know. In a FOIA we don’t have to produce documents we don’t have. Now if we start asking for those, you have to give us those documents so we can store them, then they’re releasable, they’re in a FOIA then. If not, then we just say we don’t have them. Moon said but the COAs are always available. Quisenberry said but the other part that he was going to get at is they should have, the city, the parent of the HDC, should have all the documents and everything that you guys do regarding what you do. Moon said well, the only thing that would not be available at this point are, as he said, personal notes that you might write down at the time of the meeting. Otherwise, you’ve got the minutes from all the meetings, the agendas, and the results, the COAs, denials, on the info base. Those are the, you know, the results of all of the meetings (unintelligible), and there’s only one key piece that isn’t available and that’s the applications. The applications disappear. Forte said that includes the plans, whatever plans are. Moon said plans, he thinks often go into the street files. Smith said if they’re part of the building permit thing, right? Moon said yeah, because those are part of the, for building permits. The HDC sees them. And that goes to the building department and then from the building department, it goes into the files. Now why again that doesn’t seem to be complete, he doesn’t know, because as he mentioned before, he means, there are some, the file on his own house is like this thick because the previous owner was a contractor, did his own work, applied for COAs and such, and his plans are that thick in the file folder now. If you unfolded them, it would cover that whole table. And there are other files like that. How important those are, he doesn’t know, but all of those kinds of plans are there in some cases. Not in every case but some.

Quisenberry asked why does the application go away. Roth said that was her question. Moon said he doesn’t know because he’s asked, you know, can they retrieve old applications. Quisenberry said the application should be put in the street file. It should be kept as part of the file for whatever is they’re asking for. Moon said that’s not his (gesturing). Roth said so, they come to the village and then they are just disposed of. Smith said well, now, they come into the village by way of an e-mail from their CivicPlus, their website company, they send it to them and Smith immediately forwards it on to the five commissioners. Does Smith still have it? Yes, he does. But all the commissioners have it as well. Quisenberry said it doesn’t go away. Roth said but it doesn’t get put in the file. Smith said no. They typically don’t print it out though and put it in the file. No, they wouldn’t do that because he doesn’t know whether this is going to be denied or approved at that time when it’s come in. It’s just an application. Quisenberry said but that’s academic what happens to it. But the fact that an application was applied for a certain home, that’s significant.

Smith said so, here again, they could synch up these street files by putting in all these documents for the application, the final determination, whether that’s a COA or an MOA or something else, a denial, they would put all of those in the street file.

Forte said so, can they make a motion to like, make that little policy here on forward.

DeLorge said she did have a question though. So, the applications that they’re talking about are the building applications, correct? (Unintelligible crosstalk.) (Continuing), DeLorge said that you get in, so, they get it in by e-mail and it’s a building – Smith said it’s a work permit application. DeLorge said right. So, those go to Susan Weaver also. Smith said the building ones do. DeLorge agreed. They’re tied. Smith said the HDC ones don’t go to Weaver; they just go to the commissioners, but they all – (interrupting Smith), Moon said he would say that most of those after the meeting, say the COA is granted, whatever. Shredded, recycled, whatever. Smith said they don’t shred them here. He would think those would be – (interrupting Smith), Moon said well, but the individual commissioners. Roth said but that’s part of the process. Moon said he doesn’t have room to, he’s not going to keep a file of every application that was filed with them. He doesn’t have the space.

Wylie and Roth said it should be. Roth said it should be here. So, each file then would be complete. Like Moon said, people pull them for information on the home when they buy it, and if the file is here, she doesn’t understand why it would not be complete. It’s part of the process. The application is what kicks off the whole thing, so if the application is shredded or, then in order to keep it chronologically correct in the file, you would need the application to start the process.

Wylie said to Forte’s question, if they want to make a resolution, they have to put it on the agenda. They have to amend their agenda tonight, so it may be a better idea if she puts it on a future agenda. Forte said let’s do that. She thinks they’re all working towards them anyway.

Wylie asked if there was anything else on this topic, and suggested Forte add, you know, if she could let Smith know, DeLorge know, that she wants to put it on a future agenda.

Moon asked if that same thing would apply to the planning commission. He knows, again, some street files have planning commission notes in it that, you know, which involved a particular house or location. Forte said it’s a good idea. Roth said it should. Moon said but he knows, a lot of them don’t. Forte said she thinks both. They should. Moon said ZBA [Zoning Board of Appeals]. Forte said maybe ZBA too, yeah. So, just all three, then they just know (unintelligible). Roth said she means, that’s the point of the file. (Unintelligible crosstalk.)

Wylie said great and asked if there was anything else on this tonight.

Quisenberry said to memorialize everything structurally that goes on with that apartment or that home or anything that is attempted to, then yeah, he thinks it should be everything there almost to include, say there’s a fire there, all right, a fire report, so that it, he means, that affects the structure and anybody could then look at that street file and see, you know, what was done in that house. He means, he doesn’t know if that’s too far reaching or not, but certainly anything that is, that any records that they have regarding a home that affects its structure, if they have availability to memorialize that, they probably should.

Wylie recognized Roth for a comment.

Roth said she does have one thing then. Based on that, it seems like, given there is a file that is missing, some accountability like Casey mentioned where you can’t really have everybody check out a file. But it seems like there should be some accountability when somebody comes in to look at a file. Sign in, sign out, or she means, something that tells you the last person that pulled the file, so you know, oh, the file is missing. Well, that that person was the last one to see it.

Wylie said she had a few hands up.

Wylie recognized Cara Catallo for a comment.

Catallo said, well, she just, she takes that a step further to say that she knows she was concerned when she was on the HDC that they shouldn’t leave the building. So, she doesn’t know that signing it out is the right answer. Roth said she meant to look at it. Catallo said but she thinks if somebody were to look at it, they should do it, like, somebody from the staff should take the file and set somebody down, like, in the middle of the other room, so that they know people aren’t pilfering, because she was always concerned that that would be the case. Roth said that’s actually what had happened. She didn’t mean to have it leave, but just the fact that somebody is sitting down with the file, so you have some accountability for who’s looking at it last.

Wylie asked if Catallo had anything else. Catallo said no, that was it.

Wylie recognized Pardee for a comment and noted he had his hand up.

Pardee said yes, he just wants to point out that Hubbell, Roth and Clark [HRC] have a whole lot of information as we have used them as an engineer. He’s found that HRC has three times the information that he could find in the street file for his building because there was a whole lot of cement, a whole lot of push back related to the building. It took for years from building until approval for occupancy. They were trying to sue the builder. Wylie said so, Pardee is saying that they could be another resource if something, if there’s a missing file. Pardee said yes.

Pardee said he wants to put something on Moon’s to do list and it’s 42 West – Wylie said look how excited Moon is. Moon told Pardee he doesn’t have enough to do. Pardee said 42 West Washington. He thinks the decision there reflected a whole lot of stuff on buildings in maybe the historic district. He’ll suggest at the meeting what his conclusion was, but he thinks the conclusion that was made had implications in the village and if that’s true, come tell us about it. If it’s not, then come tell us about it.

Forte asked if that was on their list. Roth said no. Pardee said no, it’s a request to tear down the building and the judge, in his mind, declared no buildings within the HDC could be torn down. Forte said isn’t that the point of the HDC. Wylie said well, that’s a discussion for another time. Pardee said yeah, they weren’t historically relevant. They were in the HDC. That’s how he read that.

Wylie thanked Pardee and asked if anyone else had a question.

No additional questions.

Wylie and other council members thanked Moon. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Wylie said one more week and he can give that to Rob (Hauxwell). Wylie said they’ll give the job back to Hauxwell because Moon is helping Hauxwell out. Hauxwell is the chairman, and so Dr. Moon is kindly helping Hauxwell out. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Giving him three months to get set up. OK, thank you.

Item 11b – Resolution: Proposal to Sealcoat and Restripe the City’s Washington & Main Depot Road Parking Lots (Video time mark 1:06:46):

• • Resolution – Paring Lot Maintenance (Page 31/46 of the council packet)
  • Bid Comparison (Page 32/46 of the council packet)
  • Proposal from Doug’s Seal Coating & Striping (Page 33/46 of the council packet)
  • Proposal from Asphalt Sealcoating Services, LLC (Page 35/46 of the council packet)
  • Proposal from Lower Peninsula Striping and Sealcoating, LLC (Page 39/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said this is Item 11b, Resolution: Proposal to Sealcoat and Restripe the City’s Washington & Main Depot Road Parking Lots.

(Wylie read the resolution.)

Wylie said she will need somebody to make this resolution and a second.

Motion by Forte; second Casey.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion from council.

No discussion.

Wylie asked if Smith had anything he wanted to add. Smith said no.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion from the public.

No discussion.

Wylie asked DeLorge to take a roll call.

Wylie, Roth, Rodgers, Quisenberry, Lamphier, Forte, and Casey voted yes.

Wylie said so, the resolution is adopted unanimously. Thank you everybody. And for those of you, that this, the packet includes the quotes and comparison.

Item 11c – Resolution: Proposal to Purchase and Install “See Me Flags” at the Depot Road & Main Street Crosswalk (Video time mark 1:09:41):

• • Resolution – Road Crossing See-Me Flags (Page 41/46 of the council packet)
  • See Me Flags Information Packet (Page 42/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said they are now moving on to Item #11c., Resolution: Proposal to Purchase and Install “See Me Flags” at the Depot Road & Main Street Crosswalk. And is Smith talking oh, they have a resolution first.

(Wylie read the resolution.)

Wylie said and since this is a resolution, she will need somebody to make the resolution.

Motion by Rodgers; second Quisenberry. Wylie noted Rodgers brought this to their attention.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion from anybody on council or questions.

Wylie recognized Roth for a question.

Roth asked how did the, well, the first kit was $200, and then the initial, so the replacement flags, assuming these are going to be stolen, is an additional $300. It’s a total of $500? Smith said it’s just a round number. Roth said it’s just an estimate, OK. (To Smith), Wylie said he’s not anticipating spending the $300 immediately. Replace them as needed. Roth said she was just wondering because that seemed like a lot for replacement flags. Rodgers said yes. Quisenberry said they will be (unintelligible). Roth said her grandson’s gonna love these things. They’ll be going back and forth across the road. Wylie said they expect Roth to return them. (Laughter.)

Wylie asked if anyone else on council had questions or comments.

Lamphier asked if it’s just one location where they’re going to put them. Rodgers said to just try it out.

Wylie said she has used those in Seattle, and she thought they were the coolest things. Roth said that picture was great. Wylie said she showed a picture and wasn’t sure if everybody was here at that meeting. She thought they were very effective.

Rodgers said she does think they have other areas that need them. Wylie said like Main and Clarkston.

Wylie asked if anybody else had questions or comment regarding this.

Wylie recognized Cara Catallo for a comment.

Catallo said she thinks Roth just demonstrated why it’s not the best idea, if that people just think it’s fun to, like, cross with, you know, a flag. And she also feels like it gives a false sense of security. She’s thought about this a lot since Rodgers mentioned it because, like, she’s so grateful that they finally have that crossing, and she’s never found it difficult to cross there because she stops and makes eye contact. She thinks if you use common sense then it’s great, but she’s almost worried that this is going to give, like, an even greater sense of entitlement, like she’s running out to the street. Catallo thinks it’d be better to save the money and put it towards, like, a legit, like, flashing sign like they have in Fenton. They have, like, she would duplicate that. We have the pedestrian signs. She would do it on both sides, so both sides and get, like, a solar light so that there’s a flashing thing. She just feels like this could be how, while it’s adorable, she thinks that it’s going to just be a lot of sign, like, a lot of flags stolen and a lot of angry drivers because people are, you know, being too cutesy with the flag on a very busy street. And she wondered if they even talked to MDOT [Michigan Department of Transportation] about this because it just seems, she means, she was just reading during the rest of this meeting, other communities that have had problems with them and controversy, and she just was curious, like, it just it seems adorable, but she just feels like it’d be better to have something a little bit more real.

Forte said yeah, in terms of safety, like, rating-wise, if you’re going to do a transportation plan, this isn’t something you’d suggest, like, you would do a box signal or something like that because, like, it’s a good point, like, even though you’re joking, like, people can take them and once they’re gone, like, it’s just, it’s not a great system. A light would be better safety-wise.

Wylie said the difference in cost between a light or, and she, common sense is certainly the best way to handle it. Problem is they get people crossing who don’t have common sense, who don’t look, but maybe they would grab a flag and catch some driver’s eye and the whole idea is to save somebody’s life.

Wylie recognized Pam Ford and asked if she had something to show them. Ford said she does. Wylie said she knows she’s been sitting there for a while and maybe she’s got something in her hand.

Ford said that’s a concern of theirs. You know, they sit there on the street and someone’s going to be killed and she’d like to see something done before they have something they regret happening. Wylie asked if Ford wanted to introduce herself to everybody, and if she likes, she could stand at the podium. Ford provided her name. (Unfurling a large document), Ford said she brought this because this has been a concern for some time. (Ford walked toward the council table and faced away from the audience for the duration of her comments.) Ford said this is what they’ve done on a state highway in Lake Orion. Forte said that’s a long signal. Roth said she was going to ask Ford what that meant. Ford said she really believes that something like this wouldn’t be offensive. She thinks it would be effective.

Roth asked Ford how does this work. What you call it? Forte said it’s an acronym. (Unintelligible crosstalk.) Roth said OK.

Rodgers said so, when she presented the safety flags, she started it out with she doesn’t know if this is, like, for us, this was to be a conversation. They have more than just that crosswalk at Honcho that is a dangerous (unintelligible). She personally walks the city every day and has, you know, been almost hit in a variety of places and she is, she thinks, use her common sense, you know, maybe some people would differ on that, but those would be amazing to have. Smith indicated that he has talked to MDOT about doing something, and they have said that we don’t, haven’t had an incident and so we can’t, they won’t do anything until we do. So, she, like Ford, she’s just terrified that somebody is going to get hurt, so that her intent was not to bring something that’s adorable. It was meant to bring something to help the safety. That is the best idea. But until they can get to that, and how do they get to that, she felt like this would bring the conversation up, whether or not they do it or they don’t do it is beside the point, but the conversation has to take place. She means, the other intersection that is very difficult is at Waldon and Main Street, not on the south side, but on the north side. Very few people ever cross there. So, when they do, the person coming up the street, up Waldon making that right-hand turn, don’t expect to see them. Wylie said plus they’re looking south for oncoming traffic. Rodgers said exactly, so, there’s another spot. Ford is exactly right. That is what needs to happen at a variety of our stops, at our areas. But in lieu of something like that, which has been somewhat denied, she brought this up more to start the discussion than to – Ford said because there hasn’t been an incident.

Quisenberry said he doesn’t think that’s right. He thinks that a conversation with MDOT that we don’t want to wait for an incident and that’s why we want to do this. This is being proactive and it’s being safety measures and MDOT, Quisenberry finds it unfathomable they would say wait until you have something. Ford said that doesn’t make sense and she talked to her daughter about how they were able to massage this (unintelligible).

Wylie said Smith said he looked like he was ready to talk. Smith said he’s not sure if that’s a state highway or not – Ford said it is – (continuing), Smith said but why that would improve that. (Ford walked toward Smith and showed him her document.) Smith said he knows they are on Telegraph as well. They have signals. (Ford sat down.)

Smith said so, he called MDOT last week when he was just putting this proposal together. He’s just putting the words together and just following through on that request to put this on there. So, he talked with MDOT, Bill Behr(?), Smith’s contact there, he said well, again, they don’t, they’ve done, they’ve studied this intersection and don’t feel it’s worthy of a HAWK [High Intensity CrossWalk] signal. But Smith said has anything changed. It’s been two years since they’ve had this discussion. Has anything changed or is there a new technology of some sort that could be used at that intersection. Maybe it’s not as big and as expensive as the HAWK signal. And he said, well, let him make some phone calls and he’ll get back to Smith. Smith said he hasn’t gotten back to him yet. But before that, Smith said, would he come to a council meeting. Because Smith would love to have him come and talk to his city council about what can and cannot be done and if it cannot be done, why can it not be done. He said sure, he does that all the time. Smith said so, he thinks that would, to Quisenberry’s point, you know, he’d like to talk to MDOT. Smith thinks that would be a logical next step, you know, whether you want to table this and approve this agenda, this motion, is up to you, but Smith can have MDOT come to the next meeting, and try to get him to the next meeting, and have him explain this. He’s the expert as to why they could or could not do this.

Forte said the planning commission did look into, like, the walkability of the city and stuff, and it kind of got tabled for the time being. Rodgers said that planning commission when Forte presented that whole Main Street thing was beautiful, like taking away part of that one parking space, so that when people were coming up Depot Road, the traffic coming on can’t even see. If there’s a car parked there, that traffic can’t even see a person standing there, common sense or otherwise. You can’t see a person physically standing there. And so, Rodgers’s fear is that something has to be, like, they really have to make sure this is, if they don’t approve this today, and again, that was, her intent was to bring this conversation to a light, to make a change, that this has to be on the agenda until something, whatever that something is, is fixed before somebody gets hurt.

Wylie recognized Roth for a comment.

Roth said yeah, she just wanted to say to Rodgers that this, she did not mean to minimize this at all, and she was joking about, you know, her grandson, because, but he’s not an adult. So, you’re talking about two different things. So, for you, trying to pull something in that at least minimizes the possibility. This was a great idea. Rodgers said and even if they do approve this, she thinks they need to continue to get to where Ford is talking about because that is, that, or the what, the planning commission’s bigger scheme is they need to get to that before, this was just kind of like a bandage to get to them that, but it needs to be an agenda item so that they can get to that stuff (unintelligible). Roth agreed and said Behr should definitely come and see them.

Wylie recognized Casey for a comment.

Casey said he’s been in this town for a long, long time and he’s walked around, and he’s never had an issue with traffic and almost getting hit. He means, if you use common sense at the crosswalks, you know, you follow the lights or if there’s no light, if you actually look at the traffic and see that it’s stopping at the crosswalk by Depot. He just thinks it’s a waste of money, frankly. They have other things they need to spend on here. He’s not trying to minimize Rodger’s concern though, but he just doesn’t see it.

Rodgers said she does, she guesses they just have to agree to disagree. She’s seen people start out and cars go whizzing by them because, and it’s not because they want to run them over, it’s because they’re just not paying attention. So, it depends on what time of day you’re going through. It depends on who you are. It depends on whether you have common sense, and you don’t have common sense, and we can’t stand here and be the judge of who does and who doesn’t. Roth said whether you have kids, whether you have a stroller, if you have an elderly person using a cane. She means the circumstances could change.

Wylie said and everybody who walks there is not necessarily a resident. They may not be familiar with, they see crossing walk, and people walk, and they may not realize that you really need to catch the cars – (unintelligible crosstalk comment from Rodgers) – (continuing), Wylie said that you need to catch their eye before you go, and people may not know that. She means, she thinks their responsibility is to make it as safe as possible and she thinks this is a good start.

Wylie recognized Quisenberry for a comment.

Quisenberry said he just wanted to ask Rogers as the maker of the motion if she would consider tabling this until they hear and make arrangements to have Smith bring the MDOT person here, present, so then they know what they can and they can’t. Rodgers said absolutely. Her goal is to start the conversation. So yeah, obviously, so absolutely, she thinks that’s a fine idea, yeah.

Wylie said she thinks if they, she always forgets how they table stuff. Quisenberry said she just removes the motion. Smith said well, somebody’s motion to table supersedes the motion. Wylie said anything else. Quisenberry said she chooses to withdraw her motion and needs a second, then it’s off the table then. (Smith made an unintelligible comment.) Rodgers said she can do that.

Wylie said Rodgers is actually then, moving her first motion to move this resolution and Quisenberry is also doing that. So, they are not dealing with resolution unless somebody else wants to make a motion on it. Rodgers said and depending on what this gentleman says from MDOT, if there is no other alternative, she can always bring her motion back? Smith said absolutely.

Forte said they should update that plan, the walkway plan (unintelligible). Wylie said and of course the problem with that was millions of dollars. Forte said always.

Quisenberry said they removed the motion, but they still have to act on the resolution. Removed the motion, so they need a new motion to table.

Wylie said OK, she needs a motion to table this resolution and asked if anyone would like to make a motion to table the resolution.

Motion by Quisenberry; second Roth.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion on council.

No discussion.

The motion to table the resolution passed by unanimous voice vote.

Wylie said and that is adopted. We have tabled it.

Item 11d – Resolution: Proposal to Repair a Leaking Plumbing Valve in the City Office Utility Closet (Video time mark 1:25:23):

• • Resolution – City Hall Plumbing Repair (Page 45/46 of the council packet)
  • Proposal from Carter’s Plumbing (Page 46/46 of the council packet)

Wylie said OK, they are on Item #11d, Resolution: Proposal to Repair a Leaking Plumbing Valve in the City Office Utility Closet.

Wylie said she was actually here that day when Smith was dealing with the plumber. Smith and Wylie were talking, and he was hoping to get it done that day, and then the guy told him how much and Smith said oh, it’s not happening today.

(Wylie read the resolution.)

Wylie asked for a motion for the resolution.

Motion by Forte; second Roth. Wylie said that’s what she heard first.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion from council.

No discussion.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion from anyone else.

Smith said he was sorry. The last page of their packet is the second quote he just got today for $610. Wylie said OK. Get one more and see if he can get it to $500.

Wylie asked DeLorge to please take the roll.

Casey, Forte, Lamphier, Quisenberry, Rodgers, Roth, and Wylie voted yes.

Wylie said and the resolution is adopted.

Agenda Item #12, Adjourn (Video time mark 1:27:38):

Wylie asked if there was anything else before they adjourn.

No comments.

Motion by Roth; second Forte.

Wylie asked if there was any discussion.

No discussion.

Motion to adjourn passed by unanimous voice vote.

Wylie said thank you and they are at 8:27.

Wylie thanked everyone for being there.

Resources:

• • Link to video recording here 
  • 04-22-2024 City Council packet